Scoop Jackson: Vantage Point

This is very long, so let’s get right to it. This is a candid conversation about issues that pain Blacks in sports as well as society. You may have a broad range of emotions when reading this piece. Some of it may anger you, yet in the end this piece can become a catalyst for meaningful solutions to the problem of race relations. These types of conversations need to be inclusive of all races to stimulate progressive change. For all of you who say that we shouldn’t be so political because this is a sports-based site, The Starting Five gives you reality. This is our vantage point.

The videos are embedded to give a perspective of my (Michael Tillery) perception of Hip Hop and how it’s presently perceived. We are at a time and age where everything is cross referenced and hard to separate. Sports and Hip Hop mirror society and shouldn’t be judged any differently than culture, Hollywood, politics or anything else that shapes us. Personal interest perception reigns and that, America, needs to desperately change.

Scoop is somewhat of a polarizing entity in journalism. Not personally, but the way he’s perceived. He’s the perfect candidate for an interview such as this. Dwil and I hope people read the whole piece and then try to formulate their total thoughts on the purpose of the interview. We hope you enjoy the read and please be honest in your comments–regardless of their nature. (note: a large portion of the initial conference call interview was rendered inaudible and we’re all sorry about that. However, viewing the interview as it stands, we can’t imagine what the interview would look like length-wise with that initial two hours of conversation edited and included here.) Peace – Mizzo, DWil.

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DW: You are from Chicago, correct?

SJ: Yes, Southside of Chicago, born and raised. I don’t plan on going anywhere.

DW: Discuss your early maturation from college into journalism.

SJ: My father was one of the first Black reporters in the country. He was the first Black reporter in the city of Chicago. In fact that was how I got the name Scoop. My uncle named me Scoop because I was born right after President Kennedy was killed. He said to my father, “Yo, you just had a son, he’s gonna scoop Kennedy in the paper.” That was attached since birth. My father and mother split up when I was in second grade. I guess I got a taste of negative media through him. I couldn’t understand why the negative reporting. When stuff happened, I was on the outside looking in. I understood what he was doing, but it kind of made me adverse to reporting. The way they approached subjects–literally–in droves, in large corporate numbers. As I got to six and seventh grade, I started questioning how can they do that? I did gain from my father an appreciation of what he was doing. It was ironic because at this time he’d moved to Denver. I started to appreciate from a distance what he was doing. I picked up on the writing side of it. I’ve always been into current events. My mother always made sure my brother and I knew what was going on. She would have dinner on the table and before we would eat she would ask us questions like “What went on with President Nixon today?” If we didn’t know, sometimes we didn’t eat. That’s how my mother got down sometimes. It’s not like today how you can find out what’s going on through a computer. I gained an appreciation for current events. Coming up through high school, I became a magazine freak and magazines started to shape the way we looked at things. Magazines were more specialized than newspapers. I was always into music, so I started reading Billboard and got hip to Nelson George. The same with Rolling Stone. Reading Sports Illustrated to keep up on Ralph Wiley and Alexander Wolf. I really started to gain an interest in the field. I went to Xavier University in New Orleans with the full intentions of becoming a lawyer. Things were becoming very political at the time, so I thought becoming a lawyer with the thought of politics was a natural move. The only way to study law at the undergraduate level is to take political science. So in 1981, I was taking poly-sci. Policy is a whole different dynamic. I thought all politics was scandalous. I thought to myself that this is it. This is going to be fascinating. Then when it came down to taking pre-law classes, I had to study case after case after case. I’m thinking, “This is what law is about?” You just learn and memorize cases? No, this is not my thing.

So I basically flipped majors. My mother said that if we were going to send you away and spend money for school, you might as well be interested. My interests in magazines, newspapers and music translated into mass communication. I’ve worked every day since the age of fourteen. My mother worked three jobs to get me through school and take care of the household. So, I got through school and worked to help pay that off. Came back to Chicago and worked for the city for a couple of years. Jane Byrne was the mayor at the time. I was doing payroll for the state every summer making crazy money. Nine hundred dollar checks in 1983-1984 was a lot of money. That’s how the whole kicks (sneakers) thing started for me. I could afford to buy a new pair every couple of weeks.

Then I was in a really bad car accident and almost died. I wasn’t really doing what I should have been doing with my life so that accident put it all in perspective. My grandmother used to tell me that God puts you through a lot for a reason and I had to figure out what I was going to do with my life. I worked for another year, saved my money and applied to grad school at Howard University. That’s where the writing thing started when I was accepted into Howard. I finished up at Xavier in 1986–graduating in 1987–worked for two years and entered Howard in 1989–majoring in mass communications. They didn’t have mass communications on the graduate level, they had communication studies. I soaked up anything and everything journalism during this time. Reading the Washington Post everyday and just talking to anyone who was close to the field. The Post introduced me to Donna Britt, Tony Kornheiser and Michael Wilbon. The Post was the best newspaper in the world. I just never read it until my time in D.C. I was really impressed by the writing.

Again, current events was my thing. I responded to Flavor Flav of Public Enemy crashing an Arsenio Hall show–the guest was Vanilla Ice. He also appeared on a show with New Kids On the Block. This is 1990-1991. This is the time that Flav’s band mate, Chuck D was doing everything possible to elevate Black nationalism and Flav threw it all out the window. I had a problem with that. So I wrote a commentary. Keep in mind that I’m reading op-ed’s in the Post and the Sun Times. I constructed my own little op-ed. Dealing on a Hip Hop political subject matter; I knew no one would touch it. Somebody had to say something, and I did. In grad school, they aren’t used to getting copy or anything from the grad body at most schools. They not only ran it, they had to seek out and find me. When they found me, they asked if I would do something like that every week. I said yes, and that’s how I really got my start. Every week they just gave me a platform to write. I wrote on all kinds of subjects, from the war on drugs to Black nationalism. I had my own little column. They were also sending me small checks, so that was cool.

DW: I didn’t know you spent so much time in D.C.

SJ: Yeah, I’m glad I came home, but D.C. is wonderful.

DW: Yeah, around that time it was the last respite of D.C. if you will–as a popular city.

SJ: Yeah, no doubt. In that era of Hip Hop, with all its consciousness–X Clan, Public Enemy, Ice Cube and even BET–it was a great time to be in D.C. because you really couldn’t get more conscious than that. Especially being that Marion Barry was the mayor. D.C. had a major influence on the way I think. Howard University is set up to be a think tank for Black folk in and around the community while they are studying there. It was an amazing time for me. My master’s thesis was on Hip Hop. At that time, no one had ever done anything like that. It was very difficult to be able to present my thesis. I also learned how Black folks can also be your worse enemy. Some of the White professors that I spoke to during that time were hoping that Hip Hop would develop and were very supportive of my thesis. It was a form of communication. That was the only drawback to being at Howard. They really didn’t know how to go about supporting the subject of my thesis. Somebody has to bite the bullet sometimes for progress to happen. Somebody has to be Crispus Attucks. I had to make them see that what I was trying to do was something worth studying.

DW: You spoke earlier about your Mother stressing the importance of being informed. Was that a staple of your surroundings in Chicago? Were other families like that or no?

SJ: Yes and no. My mother was a big believer of surrounding yourself with people that think. That took analysis very seriously. Much like Allen Iverson, she was also very strong in staying true. So true in that you don’t remove yourself from an environment that you came up in. It was kind of a combination of all of my surrogate Aunts and Uncles. Making sure I always was around that talented tenth (percent) of people. People to the degree of a Cornel West and also be able to live blocks away from the projects. My Mother wanted me to have the best of both worlds. We had enough money to be comfortable. She was making what I was able to bring in. I never left. People I grew up with have been killed. You know how it is in the ‘hood.

DW: Yes and no. I was a private school kid and grew up on a farm in Nebraska.

SJ: You still know what’s going on because of your time spent in D.C.

DW: Of course.

SJ: It’s crazy in Black communities. You can have million dollar families and two doors down, shit will be everywhere. (Dwil and Scoop laugh) Especially with gentrification.

DW: I asked that question because I see some similarities of how we were raised (philosophically). Its part of the Diaspora of Blacks that people seem to miss. Not miss, but it’s not talked about. It’s not explained to a wider audience. Also, to stress the importance of your Mother helping you to stay true.

SJ: My mother was a social worker. She worked for public children’s services. I was introduced to individuals all my life who were wards of the state and didn’t have families. These were the surrogate brothers and sisters that I always had in my house. My Father used to say that he didn’t know who would be in our house when he came home from work, because of my Mother bringing people in. She was just trying to make their lives better. The world is the disparate of the world my Mother shaped us to live in. She didn’t do anything out of sympathy, that was just her nature. She is very caring and she wants us to never pull too far from that. She had a total dislike for snobs. She never wanted us to look down on people no matter what color they are. She was special in that I got to watch her hold it down and it really gave me a sense of purpose. They used to call her a militant midget. She was no joke. She used to whoop our asses. No one messed with her.

There are single women today that complain that they don’t have a man. I feel your pain, but Mother was one to never complain of such. I watched her handle it! She taught me an important responsibility at an early age. I lied about my age working at McDonald’s (Jackson began working at McDonald’s at age 14 instead of the legal age of 16) to bring money in the house for the family. A lot of things that my Mother did shaped the person I am today.

MT: Clear up your status at ESPN and explain the reason why you’ve been rotating in and out of the National Voice link on the .com.

SJ: ESPN is going through some changes. The Editor in Chief, John Papenek has been reassigned. I think they are going through some numbers issues. They want to make some changes and get some new voices in that slot. They want to rotate the National Voices. Because I’m the newest, I’m the one that’s affected. That’s it. That’s basically what it is. When people saw my picture removed they thought I was gone. No, not at all, they are just shifting people back and forth. They are giving Jemele Hill a chance to get in there as well as other people. Whenever I do a column, you’ll see me in that spot.

I don’t know if it’s a numbers issue or what. They haven’t explained to me why. They haven’t said anything about my work—I don’t think it’s about the work. It’s easy for me to jump on the fact that I’m the Black guy up there. The reality is that I’m the youngest one. Gene Wojciechowski, Pat Forde and Bill Simmons have been here for years. I’ve really just got here. This all happened in the middle of re-upping my contract. My contract is not up for another couple years. People are assuming too much. I was on vacation, so people were wondering what is going on. I get six weeks of vacation. I’ve been at ESPN for two years and have never taken one.

MT: How does your salary compare with other comparable writers at ESPN?

SJ: That is a good question. I really don’t know. I don’t know what everyone else is making. I don’t know what everyone else initially made when they signed here. I’m pretty sure Bill Simmons makes a chunk more than I do. Other writers have been here longer than me, so one would expect them to be making more. I had to cut contracts I had with Slam, the NBA and Nike. I was making a nice chunk of change before ESPN. The Nike stuff was really hard to let go. I had been working there for four years on various projects—The Soul Provider book, the Air Force One 25 campaign and leading up to LeBron. Stuff that you would do working for Nike. Working with Nike was a conflict of interest for ESPN.

MT: Dwil wanted to ask why–besides the money–did you leave SLAM magazine for ESPN?

SJ: Opportunity. I was at SLAM for eleven years. How many Allen Iverson articles can I do? ESPN contacted me a few times, but I didn’t like what they were offering. It really had nothing to do with money. I knew if they kept contacting me, then I couldn’t say keep saying no—especially if they were offering something respectable. They offered me a column, a television presence and spots in the magazine, so it was an offer I couldn’t refuse. Now they were talking. You can’t keep telling Halle Berry, No,” if she keeps calling your crib (We laugh). If they want me to exclusively write for them then ESPN had to pay me accordingly. I also am able to develop content for television shows. How can I turn that down? It has nothing to do with money, it’s more about opportunity. Originally with Cold Pizza, they wanted me to do what Woody Paige was doing—battling with Skip Bayless. That was cool, but I wanted more than that. I had a lot of things going on and I just didn’t want to do one thing. I want to stress that it’s more about opportunity than money.

MT: What is the ultimate job for you at ESPN?

SJ: I really don’t see myself differently at ESPN. That may not be a good thing. There’s a part of me that really believes that I’m the wrong cat for ESPN. ESPN is the big stage, I don’t know if I’m a big stage type of cat. Jay-Z gets a whole lot of love for what he does, but Rakim is not that type of MC. He and Jay-Z have a totally different type of audience. Some people are not for everyone to get. I think I’m one of those people. I think I’m really one of those people for everyone not to get.

MT: The hook of this track’s main objective is to get people out of their seats and dance. It is strictly entertainment and should only be seen as such. Just like the Sopranos, video games or anything else that is “entertaining”:

MT: You are musically influenced, that’s obvious. Do you think your presence at ESPN had to do with a Hip Hop influx? Hip Hop is mass marketed in this era and is a true formidable force in music.

SJ: Maybe. It’s the era that had the most influence on me. EPMD back in the day was along with Public Enemy one of the greatest groups ever—also the Ultra Magnetic MC’s. That era was special. I’m a product of that era. If these groups tried to come out now, the game is changed.

MT: It’s definitely changed.

SJ: Maybe, I’m stuck in the game. That era made people think. For some reason, that’s not part of the game presently.

MT: This is a true definition of Hip Hop and the every day struggle. Please recognize the difference:

MT: I’m familiar with Bomani Jones because we both wrote for Blacksportsnetwork.com. Bomani and I have had many conversations on myriad topics—sometimes very tense, but still communication. I know what type of writer he is. ESPN has other Black writers. I will say this. It seems like America doesn’t want to hear a Black voice in volume. If the voice comes off as anything Black, then they don’t want to hear it. I’m not even speaking of anything militant either. I want to be clear here. White writers write from their perspective—and that’s fine. But why aren’t we afforded the same scrutiny?

SJ: I know exactly what you mean. I used the word brotha in a story and I’m coming off as Black. That’s just the way we are. That’s not calling out race or throwing race in somebody’s face. That’s just what we do.

Whites look at it differently. They are not accustomed to that practice. If I reference Cooley High as opposed to Animal House, I’m being Black. If I say Barack Obama, instead of Ted Kennedy to make a point, then I’m being Black. If I use Ben Carson instead of mentioning Marcus Welby, then I’m being Black. If I put an apostrophe at the end of tryin’ instead of trying, then I’m being Black. What are we supposed to do with it? Stop?

MT: It’s what we add to the culture. Black culture is not White. I don’t want to get into this because you know I’ll start getting hot and you’ll start getting hot. The majority of this country is White. I’m sure they are uneasy with Black culture and the influx of illegal aliens and other foreigners—and maybe they have good reason to be that way. This Imus thing has also been divisive. People just aren’t comfortable in their skin right now. When people see and hear things they just aren’t used to, drama happens.

SJ: I agree with everything you just said, I think it’s more of fear. People know there is a certain place for things, but that place is not the mainstream. The country is open to certain things. Take Spike Lee for an example. People say they love him. They love his movies—Do the Right Thing, She’s Gotta Have It. Inside Man? Now that’s a different story. They say to him, “Your budget is too big.” You can’t be on HBO, maybe Cinemax. It’s ok for Michael Moore, or more specifically Quentin Tarrantino to come on HBO and direct a couple of Soprano episodes. People are fine as long as certain things don’t infiltrate the mainstream. I don’t think all of us are built for the mainstream.

Trust me, I am not mainstream. I understand the big problem with me is not what I am and what I’m writing, but where I am and where I’m writing.

MT: I hear you all day on that, I’m not either.

SJ: I could write the same things somewhere else, but because ESPN is mainstream, people don’t feel that there’s a place for that there. Part of me agrees with that. I have to take advantage of the opportunity here because if I don’t, we don’t grow as a people. If something happens to me for some brother like you or some sister like Jemele to replace me, then cool. But me not being there doesn’t serve us (Blacks) any good.

MT: It doesn’t. This country is going to go through a serious backlash because of this Imus stuff. Mainstream America and ESPN has got to understand that there needs to be serious and credible racial dialogue. People need to open up their perspective to progressive thinking. There are too many people here besides just Whites. There is way too many. So if you are not comfortable…See Scoop this is what I’m talking about when I said earlier that I’m getting hot!

SJ: Mike I hear you, but I think we’re asking something that’s just not going to happen. It’s not going to happen anytime soon. Here’s the deal man. Be very honest about this Mike. You read and I read about how upset the country is regarding George Bush. I’m going to ask you two questions: Has there ever been a public or Congressional outcry for him to be removed from office?

MT: No.

SJ: Number two. How many elections did he win?

MT: Apparently he won two.

SJ: Apparently he won two. The first one was kind of skeptical but forget that. What I’m saying is that he’s still in there! People may say his approval ratings are abysmal or whatever, but no one beat him. The majority of the country still voted for him twice.

MT: Yeah, twice.

SJ: Yeah, that’s what I’m getting at. Twice. Honestly, if George Bush could run again and the Democrats didn’t come up with an out of this world candidate, then he would win again! A large part of this country feels totally different about things than you and I do.

MT: I’m not saying we have been forced to do anything in America. It’s more a credit to Blacks maturation of objectivity that we want to experience other cultures of the world. I just don’t understand why there is this resistance from the mainstream to protect their own interests over American progressive movement. If you look at the last presidential election, the entire middle part of this country was red and the coasts were blue.

SJ: That’s because when people enter this country, they enter on the coasts. You don’t see a lot of Asians in South Dakota. You don’t see that many Blacks and Latinos in Wyoming. That’s why it’s never going to change. It’s not. We have to become comfortable with that. Mike, to be real—and you can print this—in order for America to do what you are asking it to do, power has to be relinquished. That’s just it. If I was in power, I wouldn’t want to give it up either! By power I mean, power of the mind, power of our surroundings, power of the way we live and what is right.

MT: See we are getting into some crazy territory here. I have some thoughts about how this country is going to transition into the future. That being said, if it’s going to be this much resistance now, what exactly is going to be the result of that resistance?

SJ: Nothing! The same thing! You might get some changes here and there but come on. Mike, break it down, Blacks are the only people here that didn’t come on their own accord. White ancestry brought us here and their offspring don’t want to interact with us? This country is supposed to be democratic but we are brought over here and can’t even drink water how we want to? We couldn’t vote. Housing was crazy. That was then. Now, we can’t even imagine the resistance we’re up against. It’s never going to change. I’m not trying to put a pen into your balloon family, but what you are asking is not going to happen in this country—not in our lifetime.

MT: I’ve even had people close to me—Whites—ask: “When are you people going to get over what is in the past? “Who appointed Sharpton and Jackson to be your leaders?” I respond with: “Do Whites have appointed leaders to react when Imus similar instances happen?”

SJ: They don’t need it.

MT: What people have got to understand—and this is the last time I’m going to reference this Imus b.s.—is that the entire focus should be directed at what Imus said. Whoever reacted to his foolishness with their individual philosophies are irrelevant. This has absolutely nothing to do with Black youth in Hip Hop!

 *Added on May 3. Public Enemy is simply one of the most influential music acts of our time. A conversation about consciousness, Hip Hop and race would be incomplete without referencing their impact on The Starting Five collective. Listen closely to the lyrics.

Here’s a video depicting how some–not all obviously–Blacks feel about Hip Hop. This track has it’s veins entrenched in the soul of what Hip Hop is meant to be. Hip Hop Pop has its place I guess, but I personally don’t ascribe to it. Common released this classic in ’94. This track is current climate relevant; leading us hopefully into an upcoming Hip Hop renaissance. I Used to Love H.E.R. (acronym meaning her equals rap)

SJ: What did I say to you before about Don Imus following the lead of 50 cent? Because of something ridiculous 50-Cent says, it’s OK for Don Imus to say it? I agree with you 100%.

MT: Two wrongs don’t make a right! I don’t understand. Look at late night TV. There are Girls Gone Wild advertisements. Doesn’t that take from society? I just don’t understand why anything negative in this society has a Black characterization. That’s bullshit! People need to look into the (expletive) mirror and hold themselves accountable before looking at anyone else. It’s as simple as that!

SJ: True. Yes you do understand. You may not want to understand it, because it makes you mad, but you do understand. Mike, you are smart enough to understand. Don’t see yourself short.

MT: This conversation is affecting. I’m almost sad in a sense because of the lack of hope. It just seems that Blacks are being pushed out in front of our entire society as the only people who do bad things.

SJ: I don’t know if that necessarily is true, but I do think that what we do as Blacks is highlighted more than other races. I hate to reference the tragedy of VA Tech, but I guarantee you that the first thing most Blacks said was I hope that person wasn’t Black that did that.

MT: So true. For the record, thinking that is in no way shape or form disrespecting the victims. It’s just human nature.

SJ: The fact that the killer was of Korean decent is not a total reflection on Koreans. You know nine times out of ten that is not the case when someone Black kills. Too often that becomes a reflection on our people not just the one person that did it.

MT: What is that about? Is it just about us or the scrutiny that’s heaped upon us?

SJ: It’s both! It’s not exclusive to either point. Like I’ve said earlier, I don’t want to put a damper on how you feel about Blacks, but nothing is going to change that. I don’t think other races have to deal with that total reflection that we alluded to earlier. One, we’ve been here a lot longer (along with Whites) than other races and two; we are the only race that has challenged the establishment. That’s something that people forget. There’s the resistance that America has with us. America has a different issue with us than any other race. It’s part of a Black problem also. We look upon ourselves as negative in certain issues to.

Blacks have historically fought for equality in this society. That’s just what’s in us.

MT: Scoop, we have these conversations all the time. I want to make clear here that we aren’t neglecting other races. We are specifically speaking of the Black White disconnect.

SJ: Blacks and Whites both have different relationships with other races of this society. Our situation with Whites is totally different than anyone else.

MT: I don’t know if I told you this before, but I used to have this reoccurring dream of Tupac before his death. In this dream he was dressed in African garb…similar to what he was wearing in the Same Song video when—if I can remember correctly—he was being carried during a freestyle.

SJ: Yeah, I know what you are talking about—at the end.

MT: Yes. Well, during this dream, Tupac was the leader of Black society and he did this through a radio show. Crazy irony because of Don Imus obviously. On the other end, it was David Duke—who ran a similar show. These two would battle back and forth through the airwaves about society. Society was totally separated in this dream. Tupac was in his thirties and resembled Brother J from the X-Clan.

SJ: That is what he was on his way to becoming before he got sidetracked and shifted around.

MT: Exactly! The whole Imus situation—at least to me—was foreseen. I just don’t think anyone knew it would be someone like Don Imus.

Hear me out here. Couldn’t someone be born of supreme consciousness similar to Malcolm and Martin?

SJ: Yes, but we have to understand that those two figures aren’t one in the same. Dr. King was more accepted than Brother Malcolm. That goes back to the duality of Black folks that W.E.B. DuBois talked about. We have to deal with living two separate lives in this country—the African side and the American side. When you speak of this leader, you have to understand who is going to accept him. That’s what Barack is going to have to deal with. You know how we get down. The more Whites are accepting of Barack, the less Blacks are going to accept him. What they want and what they are looking for is totally different than what we are looking for and what we need. America, the melting pot…it’s not going to change…it is what it is.

We need to all understand that we (Blacks and Whites) are living separate lives in this country. We have different needs, different cultures, and different sensibilities. Different demands, different responsibilities. We are two different people; it’s not just about skin color. Just because someone transcends that—an Oprah, Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods and Bill Clinton on the other end, does not mean that disconnect does not exist. There is a disconnect. The quicker this is accepted, the better off we’ll be.

SJ: Think about what people are saying. Let’s talk about the word nigger. White people say all the time that Blacks say nigger and why they can’t say it. My question to them is, why do they want to say it?

MT: Exactly! Why do you want to say it?

SJ: Tell me why you want to say it! Please!

MT: People that know me know that I don’t say red neck, I don’t say cracker or any other slurs and I don’t want to say them. I have no need for that BS. It gets us nowhere.

SJ: Those words are reactionary words. Any of those words are nothing more than words used as a reaction to what Whites have said or done to Blacks. Trust me, we’ve been called nigger way before any of those words existed. Saying the word cracker is not equivalent to nigger. It is a whole different thing.

I find it interesting what you said earlier about Whites close to you saying why can’t Blacks get over it. Because it still exists! I understand why Blacks say nigger. We’ve been taught to flip anything and use it as an advantage—from words to food. Soul food, for instance, is nothing but leftover shit. Blacks had to fend for ourselves. It’s not just nigger.

I swear to God Mike you need to answer them when they ask you why. Ask them again.

Why do you want to use the word?

I guarantee you that you are not going to get an answer. Straight silence. This the only way we are going to get less resistance:

When people ask themselves why, then we will be able to move on and do what you Mike, are asking for.

MT: This is so disappointing to me brotha, because I have children. I thought things in society would be getting better, not worse. My daughter was born around the time that OJ did his thing and there was some apprehension (because of the racial climate) to even have more kids. Now that we have kids, the only thing we can do is educate them to stand on their own independently and walk in a straight line until they get to their respective goals.

SJ: Don’t be disappointed brotha. You shouldn’t be questioning why you had children Mike. Blacks don’t need Whites to survive anymore. We might not be able to co-exist on their same level, but what Blacks have learned in the last sixty years or so is that we don’t need them.

We cannot expect Whites to accept us on a certain level because they have to relinquish power. You have to understand that Mike. Going back to what you’ve said, it’s not about us appointing Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton to speak for us. Whites don’t need those types because they already have them. From the president to the governor and so on and so forth, Whites can go right down the line for representation. We’ve had one Black governor in our history. There are none now. How many Black senators do we have? Two? Whites have heads of Fortune 500 companies that they can use as representation. How many Black billionaires do we have? Two! Bob Johnson and Oprah Winfrey. Look at magazines. Look at newscasts. Look at television. It’s all White dominated.

MT: What’s crazy to me is why is it that those without any philosophical power offer the same resistance as people who are in power?

SJ: That’s a good question. One, I don’t have the answer for.

MT: When are we as Blacks going to be less forgiving of racial intolerance?

SJ: That’s just us as a people. That’s one of our biggest problems. We are quicker to harm ourselves than others. Just like when Bill Simmons said in Vegas that he was afraid to walk down the street and look people in the eye. White people walking in an all Black neighborhood are safer than the people that actually live there.

MT: I tell people (Whites) close to me all the time, that the only way racism in this society will stop is if Whites recognize that there is a problem and they speak out strongly from the gate on someone like Don Imus instead of dealing with the aforementioned two wrongs don’t make a right bullshit. That is what is going to help in the healing process is for someone prominent that is White to stand up and call a spade a spade. It’s got to be someone who Whites respect.

SJ: Mike, you’ve got to understand what we are dealing with. The same people that are asking Jesse Jackson to apologize for his “Hymietown” remark or Al Sharpton to apologize for Tawana Brawley or supporting the sister in the Duke case are the same people that won’t tell George Bush to apologize for the war.

MT: Wow!

SJ: You have to understand what you are dealing with.

MT: That makes all the sense in the world, that statement is the truest. I’m an eternal optimist. I like to see things work out—if for nothing else—for the sake of our children.

SJ: I’m not worried about society at large. I’m more worried about how our children view us. We don’t need validation from anyone to exist and succeed in this country. We really don’t. If in Whites eyes they view Blacks as messed up people, then that’s fine with me. I only care about how our children see us as. I don’t want our children to be ashamed or disgusted of us because of someone else’s view. Some more analogies: Just because I don’t sell as many records as say Justin Timberlake, I stand firm on mine. Just because I don’t have two MVP trophies like Steve Nash, it’s OK to be Allen Iverson. Say Rudi Giuliani or whomever wins the candidacy for President. It would still be OK to be Barack Obama. Just because people don’t routinely compare his art to Picasso, it’s OK to be Jean-Michel Basquiat. Just because he didn’t win a full Nobel Peace prize doesn’t mean that it’s not OK to be Nelson Mandela (Who had to share the prize in 1993 with F.W. de Klerk). We can’t wait for that mainstream acceptance. Our kids have to get what we do and what we stand for.

MT: Do you think there is conversations like this going on in White society?

SJ: I don’t know. If there is, the conversations are totally different. As Blacks we have been historically taught to at least entertain conspiracy theories, but this is all about the vantage point. Mike, I can say anything about the disconnect that we are talking about. It all goes back to the vantage point. There is no way Whites can see or feel what we see and feel. It’s impossible. We have two different existences in this country. Whites just can’t see the total scope from their eyes. Recently, the Sports Nation question was: “Should the Confederate Flag be removed from South Carolina’s State Capital?” I checked when there were over 32,000 responses and it was 53% yes and 47% no. Even if Whites agree that the flag should come down, they still can’t see from our vantage point. Even if they agree with me that this is a no-brainer, they still don’t feel the full impact as to why it is such. They simply aren’t considering what the Confederate Flag means to me. They aren’t looking at it though the same vantage point. It’s not just a flag, it what the flag represents. Unless you have been where my people have been you just don’t see it the same because you don’t have the same vantage point. It’s all about the vantage point, and it’s always going to be that way.

MT: This is the basis of this last segment. Whites, when we see our history, we see death. We see mass amounts of wasted generations that would have affected the maturation and progression of Earth’s civilization.

People say this happened four hundred years ago. So what people died, get over it. So what, so what!

We’ve been born into a story. We’ve been told stories that our parents, grandparents, hell, even drunk uncles (symbolism) at barbecues have told us our entire lives. Personally, when I see the Confederate Flag, I immediately envision a dead Black man in overalls hanging. You just can’t dispute that because it’s happened numerous times. I see people burning, KKK, masks and horses and all that shit running around!

I don’t understand. We can see their vantage point. Why can’t they see ours? Is it…guilt?

SJ: Yeah, that could be part of it. Of course that’s a big part of it. It’s not just one thing. It’s a combination of things. In America, you cannot avoid White society. We are part of them. We eat foods they traditionally eat. We celebrate holidays they celebrate. We wear clothes they wear. We name our kids their names and speak their language. We have to see from their vantage point. We have to hold on to ours, but it’s a lot easier to see where Whites are coming from. We are sharing our lives with them, but they aren’t sharing their lives with us.

MT: This is something that also bothers me. I see this all the time in movies. Hypothetically, say you have a movie starring Denzel Washington, Demi Moore and Richard Gere. Denzel is playing this heroic character of sheer bravery and sacrifice. On the other hand Demi and Gere are involved in this love affair that is so dreamy and romantic. Denzel has his love interest, but it’s usually involving a bar scene and also carnal sex with fast women. At the end of this movie, Denzel sacrifices his life so Demi and Gere’s love can live on—riding off in the sunset to kiss by the ocean. I’ve seen that movie a million times (Stealth comes to mind, just a more recent example). Even though Denzel’s character is the most intelligent and strongest, he ends up dead? Are we supposed to accept that it’s cool for the Black guy to die?

SJ: That’s what you are supposed to accept. Whites don’t see it that way. It’s all again because of our vantage point. You and I know that the running joke in the Black community historically has been that we are the first to die in movies. I just don’t think they pay attention to that.

Directors will probably say that you all should just be happy to be in the movie.

MT: Bullshit!

SJ: You have to keep in mind that this is again, part of history. It’s not really bullshit. They can do this shit without us. They can exist in this country without anyone else. There are enough Whites to do so without us to be cool. I’m not trying to get on the company that sends me the check, but how long has Disney been around? At least one hundred fifty years and there are just using their first Black starring character (Maddy from the Frog Princess)? They’ve had other ethnicities—Mulan, Aladdin, but no Blacks?

MT: Let me stop you right there Scoop. Disney seems to get away with making these Victorian themed movies set way over in Europe that has no minority characters whatsoever. How can that be in this day and age that you have a movie that’s exclusive of any race?

SJ: Mike, Mike! Because they can. Why should we be mad at Disney because of this common practice? Making movies way over in Africa (Tarzan) that has no Black folks? Laughable.

MT: Yeah, funny stuff.

SJ: We have to stop asking and demanding that Whites do stuff for us. Just because we’re not involved in those projects doesn’t mean that we have to negate our creativity.

We have to do it ourselves.

Even if it’s on a smaller scale. Take Tavis Smiley for example. He should be on Nightline or some other mainstream national news show, but he chooses to stay on PBS and have his own show. Most of us are going to jump at the Nightline move because of the visibility and the contract. It’s not like PBS is Black owned, but he has a better vehicle to read his people and deal with their interests.

MT: When I was with Blacksportsnetwork.com, I used to tell my superior David Cole all the time: “What if Willie Mays stayed in the Negro League?” He has a great vision for developing BSN, and I really wanted to stay there and see it all play out. Unfortunately, it didn’t work out. We have a great thing in TSF and I also have my own site MichaelTillery.com, so things are looking up for what we are trying to accomplish here. We should all try to develop that grassroots type of vision to just see if it works. Because like you said, it’s really not working this way (on the grand scale). We’re making strong strides assimilating, but that’s not progress to me. You still have a lil’ snotty nosed kid in the ‘hood starving from neglect. We have to do more to uplift our race from the bottom to the top. It’s going to take the falsehoods in our race to collectively do a complete turnaround and become more conscious and positive affective people.

You just aren’t here for you brotha! Do your part!

I don’t know if this is going to be successful or not, but we have to Keep Hope Alive! Going back to the movie scenario I’ve mentioned. Whites can make White movies, and they won’t be labeled as such, but when Spike Lee or John Singleton directs a movie with just Blacks, it’s labeled as a Black movie. Do you know how many Whites avoid those movies just because of that inference?

SJ: Exactly! Once you are labeled Black, you are cutting off collective feet to run like Kunta Kinte in Roots. From my vantage point, I can see that John Hughes movies are whiter than white, but his movies aren’t labeled that way. Whites would be less critical of Hughes movies than Spike Lee movies because-in part—they understand Hughes movies more. But the other part is subliminal as far as I’m concerned. Woody Allen has never done a movie that had the impact of Spike’s Malcolm X. Ask the average American citizen who has the better body of work and they will say Allen. It wouldn’t be close in White’s eyes.

MT: When prominent Black Americans die, the coverage just isn’t the same. Instead of celebrating their life, there always seems to be one last dig for people to get in. I think Dwil and I spoke about this recently…comparing Jimmy Hendrix to an Eric Clapton. You can’t compare the two. Jimmy did it in a different era and used his amazing talent to affect the masses—not just one race. He was a pioneer—and he wasn’t even the first.

This is wish for every White American to do. Watch the movie Rosewood in its entirety. If you can stomach it then you will see what this entire conversation is about America.

SJ: Thank you. Thank you! A large segment of people would say it’s not like that anymore. You would say yes it is! It’s just not as overt. On some level, everyday Blacks have to deal with race. Turn on the radio, there might be three Black stations as opposed to one hundred White stations. Turn on the TV. For every Black station, there may be five hundred White stations. There are two Black TV stations: BET and TV One. When you go to grocery stores, we are going to pay more for a gallon of milk than what our counter parts will because most of Blacks are in the inner city. We’re talking about everyday life. Gas is more expensive in the ‘hood. You pay more for your car insurance in the inner city. This is just not about being called a nigger walking down the street. This is not about not getting a job or a cab for that matter—this is e-v-e-r-y-d-a-y life. Every day we are affected by race, so we can’t get over it. It is omnipresent in everything. Go through a dictionary one day. Count out how many pictures you see in the dictionary that are Black.

MT: Probably none.

SJ: So even when we look through a dictionary, we are dealing with race. Even if we go to our own toy stores in our neighborhood nine out of the ten Barbies are going to be White. And I’m seriously joking here, but when you drive down a city street any urban city where a decent percentage of black folks live and you see state workers working on pot holes that have been there for years—what is that? It sure as hell wouldn’t happen in the suburbs. They’re potholes don’t get old like ours in the ‘hood. But Whites want us to not equate this to race, but it is. George Bush took his visit to pay respects to the victims at VA Tech the day after the killings, which is what he was supposed to do, but on the flipside of that it took Bush, what, seven days to get down there after Katrina? Yet they shove down our throats that that had nothing to do with race? I can’t tell! I maybe wrong but like Barkley said, I doubt it. We deal with race every day. There’s not a Black person out there that I know that doesn’t go through this. Now how we go about it is a different story. We’re not talking about slavery; we still have to deal with the fact that we are still Black in this country. There’s always a reminder—every day.

MT: A year after Katrina, I had the honor of reciting a poem publicly I wrote entitled Black Water. Comedienne Queen Aishah let me open up a comedy show in a Washington, DC club H20…great experience. I think that moment is going to get lost in history. It was yet another chance for us as Americans to speak about race during a most vulnerable moment. I totally agree with what Kanye West said that George Bush doesn’t care about Black people shortly thereafter. I totally agree. People want to say it was more social-economics more than anything. After reciting my poem to applause in DC, I returned home to recite the same poem in a bar that I’d bounced in. The bar was mostly White at the time—as it usually is—after reciting the poem, people were hot! A friend who was with me at the time, Silas Whaley couldn’t believe the quick and hated response. Talk about culture shock. They were saying all kinds of things to me: “Why can’t you leave well enough alone? Why are you saying this? What is your problem?” I merely said to them, “Look at the facts!” The truth remains that those people sat there starving for days sweating because they were hot as hell, while mothers sat unceremoniously dead in wheel chairs for days! When we as Blacks continue to see these images and are forced to deal with those images time and time again, what are we supposed to feel?!?

SJ: Vantage point!

MT: (sigh) vantage point.

SJ: This utopian society that we are hoping for is not going to happen. They call this society a democracy, but it’s not—and it’s never going to be because a democracy means equal voice. If you think we all have equal voices and the same leverage in this society, something is wrong. The word democracy is thrown around so that other countries see us as having a little more freedom. Its true meaning is to allow people to live differently under an all encompassing government. There is no diversity here under an equal playing field.

MT: Scoop, you are seen as this polarizing figure in journalism. After our first interview I wanted to help people understand you a little bit more through your words. Society needs to hear what the hell is really going on and you have been steadfast in your conviction during the time you’ve been at ESPN.

SJ: Mike, again, what’s really going on with us is something vastly different than what’s going on with them. I’m sure people are saying, “So what that there is only 1.3% of sports editors. So what!” Seriously, that’s the attitude you are going to hear.

MT: What do you say to people who have totally sympathized with the members of Duke’s lacrosse team? Personally, I could care less racially what they went through. There were all kinds of witnesses that heard all kinds of racial slurs coming from that house. Let me make this clear that this is not about what they’ve went through personally. What I mean is the racial context and being supposedly wrongfully accused. Blacks are and have been wrongfully accused of so many crimes in this society. I’m sure there are many deaths as a result. I can guarantee you that it’s happening right this very second! If they truly were wrongfully accused then they should be allowed to re-enter society unscathed. Kobe Bryant still catches hell for a case that was thrown out.

SJ: A large part of the country does not hear of these cases you speak of Mike. The makeup of the media plays a large part in this. You can’t wrap the country’s consciousness around cases they don’t see. Because of some of our stories go untold, they are rendered almost irrelevant by the lack of coverage. Our stories do not resonate through a large part of society. You are going to have a hard time reasoning with anyone concerning the Duke case because they just don’t see what you are alluding to Mike.

MT: If I could have ever described the passion I feel about Hip Hop’s existence, I would have been mumbling these exact same words in my mother’s womb:

Hip Hop is soul and the soul is us.

David Wilson, Dax-Devlon Ross, Jonathan Weiler, Myles Brown and I, Michael Tillery want to make an impact on the way America’s media is presented. Are we perfect? No, of course not, but damn, someone out there has got to play chicken with the present media construct and create a check and balance. The media should be about helping us think. It should not be absolute. I don’t care if it’s Barry Bonds, George Bush’s Iraq or the many people who are presently missing that no one gives a damn about, the media shapes us but it shouldn’t define us. This interview’s only objective is to help us change not only the way we all look at race, but the collective image we have of ourselves and our society. Any of you that know me personally know that I see this civilization as a caricature of Rome in its immoral prime.

Imagine that.

Do you want to be reduced to monuments?

DW: Scoop, one last last thing. How would you like to be remembered?

SJ: I was reading how they paid tribute to David Halberstam last week when he past away and talked about how he was able to transcend different genres and how he dealt with both sports and race (and history in his case). I’ve always tried to do the same. When I die, I hope that I what I’d done over my career had the same type of impact on society through journalism, at least for this generation. But will I get that type of love? Probably not. But that can’t stop me from doing or writing or saying what I feel is necessary. I just better hope that I die after Jason Whitlock so that he can’t write my obit for Time magazine.

And with a laugh over his final statement, so ends the Scoop Jackson interview.