Wild Card Weekend 1/6/08: Tampa Bay Buccaneers vs. New York Giants

Defense still formidable after all these years

Tampa Bay Buccaneers vs. New York Giants 1pm FOX

This is a game where something has to give. The G-Men have won 7 straight games on the road, averaging 24 points a game. Despite their sometimes questionable play at quarterback the Giants defense is ranked #6 overall. Buc Ball is alive and well in Tampa Bay, Jon Gruden’s gang has the NFL’s #2 ranked defense. The Bucs pressure will give Eli Manning fits if the backs cannot pick up the blitzes. Quarterback Jeff Garcia will look to go deep to Joey Galloway against a banged up and overall slow Giants secondary.

Once again Eli Manning finds himself in a career-defining game, Manning who has yet to win a playoff game is thrust into the role of possible hero or goat. What Manning needs to do today to be successful is utilize his weapons. The Giants run game is ranked #4 in the NFL averaging 138 yards a game. Brandon Jacobs may not be effective in the early going, but his 264 pound frame will have much more to say in the fourth quarter. He is as important to Manning today as he has been at any point during the season whereas there will be times Jacobs will have to stay back and pick up the blitz. Plaxico Burress has dominated smaller cornerbacks all season because of his length. He faces Ronde Barber who at 5’11” may not pose a problem but help over the top will make things difficult for Burress – especially if the blitz is effective. Amani Toomer has put up decent numbers this season and has become a favorite of Manning. Expect Toomer and Sinorice Moss to work the middle and outside areas of the field. I don’t expect much from rookie tight end Kevin Boss today – he will be used primarily as an additional blocker, but if he has the opportunity in the red zone, Manning will not hesitate to look in his direction.

If the Giants are going to be a factor in the playoffs, it will be on the back of the front seven. This is the League’s #1 unit in sacks with eleven different players registering takedowns. Michael Strahan and Osi Umenyiora are the bookends of a unit that get constant pressure on the quarterback. The linebacking unit is just as stout as the front four – Antonio Pierce, Mathias Kiwanuka, and Kawika Mitchell are excellent against the run and in coverage. If the Giants want to get exotic in their packages, Kiwanuka can double as an additional pass rusher.

If the front seven can win it for the Giants – the back four can lose it. I’m not very confident in this unit that has been a weakness in an otherwise strong defense. Sam Madison is battling injuries and is a shell of the shutdown corner he was with the Miami Dolphins. Aaron Ross may be locked up on Joey Galloway today if Madison struggles. Former Giant Ike Hilliard had his best season in several years and is looking to stick it to his former team. Safeties Gibril Wilson and James Butler will be busy with run support trying to slow down Earnest Graham.

Jon Gruden took the liberty of resting his players last week as the Bucs knew that they would be hosting a game. We’ll see the impact of this coaching decision in the first quarter.

Jeff Garcia says he’s over-rested. Could that be mistaken for being overconfident? After all, Garcia has beaten the Giants twice in the playoffs–once engineering a 25-point comeback with the 49’ers and last season with the Eagles. Garcia is fortunate to have Earnest Graham in the backfield. When Carnell Williams went down early in the season, Graham stepped right in and gave the Bucs a finisher. Michael Pittman provides a change of pace and still runs hard in short yardage downs.

The Tampa Bay receivers are good enough to give the Giants problems. Ike Hilliard and Mark Clayton provide depth and great targets for Garcia, but the lynchpin of the bunch is 36 year-old Joey Galloway. Galloway hasn’t lost his desire to go deep–or his speed needed to be effective. Galloway pulled in 57 passes for 1,014 yards, an eye-popping 17.8 yards per catch.

The Buccaneer defense has withstood the test of time and is once again serving notice around the League. Derrick Brooks is the timeless leader of a unit that gives up 11 points per game at home coupled with being +20 in the turnover department. Chris Hovan and Kevin Carter anchor an underrated front four. The linebackers are going to make life difficult for Manning if the Giants cannot run the ball. The secondary is the beneficiary of the vaunted Cover 2 defense. Ronde Barber and Phillip Buchanon are solid and with help from safeties Tarnard Jackson and Jermain Phillips. The Giants may find it hard to go deep.

The defenses are virtually even until you get to the secondaries and in a game like this that will be the deciding factor. The Bucs defense will force Manning into pressure situations and ultimately a pick or two that will seal it for Chucky and Co.

Bucs 35 – Giants 14


162 Responses to “Wild Card Weekend 1/6/08: Tampa Bay Buccaneers vs. New York Giants”

  1. TB will certainly cover the 3 point spread.

    Can’t wait for the late game when VY goes 10-22, 176 yards, 0 TD, 2 INTs . . . and see TEN win 14-10, and then hear everyone talk about how Vince Young “just wins games.”

  2. I’m expecting your astute words of eloquence in my email box shortly after Tennessee wins today.

    A win is a win. Stop hatin’.

  3. I told you guys not to sleep on my boy Eli.

  4. I will gladly admit being wrong on Eli/NYG if they can hold this lead — I would MUCH rather see them in round 2 than this boring-ass TB team.

    Mizzo I’m just joking — TEN will lose by 10+ today, thanks to your boy VY.

  5. We’ll see. You must be a USC fan that just won’t get it. Some athletes have it and some don’t.

  6. thebrotherreport Says:

    This may be the game where Eli finally breaks through.

  7. Eli Manning, leader of men.

  8. Cevidence Says:

    I’ll admit to being wrong about Eli for ONE GAME. But I still wouldnt call him an elite QB over some other names in the league…

    Good game though…

  9. This isn’t one game though its a two game stretch where he has been lighting it up.

  10. Cevidence Says:

    Oh I’m sorry…TWO good games doesnt make an elite QB, my apologies

  11. If all it takes is a good two game stretch then damn near every QB who has ever started in the NFL is elite.

  12. I know you all don’t like him because he is white, this is towards Miranda, but the man is stepping up when the chips are on the line.

  13. Were the chips not on the line last season? Hey he leads his team to its first playoff game win with him starting – that’s a nice step – but please, this is his 4th year in the league — 3rd year starting – he’s gotten a huge pass in comparison to some others, surely you can see that.

  14. Eli has been a slightly above average QB in his brief career thus far. As for this supposed “huge pass” he’s received this year, well, that is just Miranda being a hater.

    By the way, another CLASSIC “Vince Young game” going on right now. 92 yards passing by halftime, 0 TD, and another amazing defensive performance by TEN. Wait, VY doesn’t play defense, right?

  15. He hasn’t gotten a huge pass. He is pressured more than any young QB in the league because of his father, his brother, and the city he plays in.

    The only person who gets unfairly criticized more than Eli is Chad Pennington

  16. Vince hasn’t made any mistakes and is moving his team though Friedman. 🙂 I want to see your article, can you tell me what its going to be about.


    Eli isn’t being coddled by the media, the pressure he gets because of his last name, plus playing in New York is more than any other young QB in the league. He is coming into his own now and performing under pressure and I’m glad to see that for him. Stop hating.

  17. Friedman you crack me up. Most qbs asses would have been burning on the bench a long time ago. NY has a lot invested in Eli, so he damn sure is getting a pass. He ain’t been right since Brian Dawkins shook the snot outta his ass his rookie year. The kid looks lost every single play. When he mans up and commits to being a great quarterback instead of being sheltered like some spoiled ass brat then he might become an elite leader.

    Like TBR said in another post, his daddy wouldn’t call him elite. He’s got a long way to go to even sniff his brother’s shadow.

    Oh, on the VY front, check his completion percentage. He’s moved his team up and through the Charger’s offense. Can Rivers say the same?

  18. LenDale White: 17 carries, 69 yards.
    LDT: 12 carries, 10 yards.

    I wonder if those stats impact the “moving up the field” angle at all. VY: 4.5 yards per attempt. Rivers, 9.5. Hmm. Completion percentage is often masked by short throws; YPA help to put that statistic into context.

    As for Eli, the only thing I said was that he’s been slightly above average, and that he hasn’t been given a pass . . . well, any more of a “pass” than VY (9 TDs, 17 INTs) has.

    DMac: I have no clue about my “article.” I haven’t written a word yet. I have faith SD will make a comeback!

  19. LMAO!! “Eli has been slightly above average in his brief career”… LOLOL!!
    This is his 4th season….its VY’s SECOND. Eli got praised today for not making mistakes! That’s it…..you will never hear about his game-changing play or his playmaking abilities, you’ll just hear about his fabulous game MANAGEMENT. LOL!! If Eli worked in corporate America, his job would be in India by now.

  20. Vince Young stunk it up today. Nice 4th quarter interception there, right into San Diego’s defense. There is truth to the “myth” that black quarterbacks, on average, don’t have the smarts and patience to read a defense.

  21. 16/29, 138 yards, 0 TD, 1 INT, 4.8 yds/att in “leading” his team to six points.

    For any other QB, an absolutely horrid performance. For Vince Young, par for the course.

    Vince Young, all he does is win football games. You know what, Mizzo, I think I have the idea for my “column” . . .

  22. Vince Young leads his team to the playoffs in his second year is the story Friedman…period.

    He will only get better and you’ll still be hating when he has a stranglehold on the league.

  23. Friedman since you like stats so much…have you compared Eli’s first 28 games with VY’s?…of course you haven’t.

  24. thebrotherreport Says:

    The pressure on Eli is self-inflicted. He wanted to play in N.Y. so why should anyone feel sorry for him when he shuns the team that drafted him. Anything that he goes through in N.Y. is his own doing. I’m sure the people in Baltimore felt that way about John Elway and people in Charlotte about Kobe.

    So no he will not get a free pass from me. Last name being Manning or not.

    Hey now that I think about it the headline next week would be alot better with him facing Peyton. Because he’ll never face him in the Super Bowl

  25. Cevidence Says:

    You know it’s funny that someone claimed we don’t like Eli just because he’s white…lol that cracked me up. Lets do a lil research…

    These are all career numbers for starting QBs that I pulled. Random QBs and I left out 4 “big” names in Farve, Manning (the good one), Brady and Romo (ehhh…)

    E. Manning 54.7% passing; 73.4 rating; (4 years)
    J. Delhomme 59.7% passing; 85.2 rating; (9 years)
    V. Young 57.1% passing; 69.0 rating (2years)
    T. Jackson 58.1%, 69.0 rating (2 years)
    R. Grossman 54.3 passing; 70.9 passing (5 years)
    M. Hasselbeck 60.7%; 86.2 rating; (4 years)
    D. Caulpepper 63.8% rating; 89.9 rating (9 years)
    M. Leinart; 56.0% completion; 71.2 rating (2 years)
    J. Campbell 57.7 passing; 77.3 rating; (3 years)
    D. McNabb 58.7% passing; 89.9 rating (9 years)

    Now I added McNabb because he gets it worse that ANY starting QB EVER! If you look across that list, those are all QBs that have had their jobs threatened due to poor performance at one time or another. Some have been benched, others traded completely, or fans felt “relieved” when they got hurt and their backup got a chance to play. If you look at that list, Rex Grossman is the ONLY QB with a lower completion percentage. Eli’s passer rating is middle of the road as well, no where near ELITE status. Now if none of these QBs are considered ELITE except for Donovan, why and how are we to consider Eli to be ELITLE? Don’t say he doesn’t have weapons, because he had Tiki; Plexico and Tommer is a better combination that MOST reciever corps, and Shockey is a hell of a TE. And B. Jacobs is going to be a strong back…just watch.

    Despite his subpar numbers, you NEVER hear talk of him being benched. THe owners/coaches don’t draft his replacement like they did McNabb right in his face. Yeah he may get booed, but how often has that translated into action from the management of the Giants. Eli gets a pass because of his last name, and the Giants organization do not want to let him go just to see him become great somewhere else.

    Look at the facts, he’s AVERAGE right now. Maybe one day well see a great QB, but you can’t ignore the fact that he doesn’t get the actual backlash as other QBs. Fans and media may hate on him, but it does not translate into actual action against him as a player.

  26. Cevidence Says:

    Now with that said, clearly I don’t care for Eli because he’s white. I have even said I think he’ll be a good QB…ONE DAY. After he leaves the Giants. But still he is given a lil more “time” than most. Hell people are even considering starting Todd Collins over J. Campbell…ARE YOU SERIOUS!?!?!? But hey…you see what you want to see…

  27. Oh damn Cevidence……he’ll never come back now….LOLOL!

  28. Cevidence Says:

    ONe last thing…

    The reason V. Young gets a pass from some. In watching this game. Those recievers he has would not start on almost ANY other team in the NFL. They are absolutley HORRIBLE, please get that man some solid help out there.

  29. DavidMac – you’re so plantation-esque.

  30. Cevidence Says:

    Ok ok one more…

    Eli is in this situation because he didn’t keep his mouth shut to begin with. Had he did HE would be in San Diego playing with LT, Merriman, Chambers and others. He would be in the playoffs for another game…but no…he used his NAME to get what he wanted and now look at him…

    He brought this on himself…

  31. https://thestartingfive.wordpress.com/2007/08/24/eli-vs-tiki/#comment-15451

    Just wanted to share a link from the archive.

    By the way, given what I was thinking back in August, it’s not all that surprising that Eli’s playing his best games with Burress hobbled and Shockey out.

    Long term, they’ll need to resolve the issues between PB/JS and management – ’cause they’re not on the same page. The Giants are just scratching the surface of how good they can be. We’ll see if they keep it up or revert to form.

  32. HarveyDent Says:

    The Titans’ wideouts could start for the Eagles…joke, joke, I joke

  33. Opening up wounds here bruh..chill on that 😉

  34. Harvey – you know that’s right.

    I don’t know if y’all are watching, but Clemson is giving Carolina all they want – and then some. It’s in OT right now.

  35. Who are they going to turn to instead? Doughboy Lorenzen? Anthony Wright? Give me a break.

  36. Also. Cev: who in this thread ever called Eli an “elite” QB? Was it actually written or are you just creating arguments with yourself?

  37. Cevidence Says:

    I love how Fried always likes to talk down to people…

    In the post with McNabb as the main picture DavidMac said that Eli is one of his top QBs in the league, thus calling him elite.

  38. I thought I said Eli is a notch below the Elite, when I clarified. I think Eli is going to surprise you haters.

  39. Why would anyone defend Elisha?

    ‘He is pressured more than any young QB in the league because of his father, his brother, and the city he plays in.

    The only person who gets unfairly criticized more than Eli is Chad Pennington’

    Well now, let’s see. 4 years ago he was drafted #1 by the Chargers, and posed for his draft picture looking like he was about to cry. This was 3 days after Pat Tillman died in Afghanistan, after he left a multimillion dollar job, and this little bitch Elisha has the audacity to look like a baby that had his pacifier stolen from him. This little bitch represents what everyone hates about athletes, and rich spoiled kids. Has gets in the league #1 on strength of his BROTHER’s name. His daddy cries and tells everyone his little boy isn’t playing unless he goes to the team he wants. This little punk exemplifies everything people hate in spoiled kids, and you think he’s unfairly criticized?

    He is a completely average QB that should have been drafted in the 3rd round. But he cried his way out of San Diego, and his daddy pulled strings for him. But lets support him… whatever. He’s unfairly criticized, well, if he hadn’t whined his way to NY, he’d just get the same low level criticizing that Rivers gets.

    I’ll continue to hate him, and I know why I hate him, even besides the fact that I’m a San Diego fan.

  40. @gmp

    I’m sorry gmp, but you are a Charger’s fan and too close to the situation to take seriously. You are too biased.

  41. I may be biased, but refute these points:

    – His draft day photo, he looked like he was about to cry when he had to pose with the Charger jersey.

    – His daddy pulled strings to get him out of one of the most beautiful cities in the states (biased) with low level media presence, and put him into probably the most evil media market in the country.

    – He has been completely average or subpar in 4 years.

  42. @gmp

    – He did look uncomfortable, but hey the chargers weren’t exactly lighting it up at the time.

    – Yes his Dad got him into the big market.

    – I disagree, starting with his first full year, after splitting time with Kurt. this is actually his 3rd year starting, counting the 2005, 2006, and 2007 (this year).

    In 2005, he led the offense to the top 5 in both Passing Yards and Touchdown Passes, while quarterbacking an offense that finished 3rd in the NFL in scoring, with a total of 422 points. It was the most points the Giants have scored in a season since 1963. The Giants won the NFC East with an 11-5 record[13], and went to the postseason

    2006 was good, until Toomer got hurt, then they struggled, but he still was solid. Manning threw for 3,244 yards, 24 touchdowns and 18 interceptions He completed 57.7 percent of his passes. I attribute this to the sophmore slump.

    2007 this year Eli has been unable to practice with Plexico because of his injury, they also no longer have Tiki, and they had to use Shockey to block more than in the offense as a receiver. He still had his ups and down, but again the kid “Just won games” like he did last night. He beat the Bucs when it mattered.

  43. Cevidence Says:

    LoL…ah yes the old “hater” come back….

    I don’t dislike the man for no obvious reasons. Hell I don’t dislike him at all. I can honestly say that I wouldn’t want him as a QB for my team (YES I’d rather stick with J. Delhomme — can’t believe I just said that) and I don’t believe he’s as good as he’s praised to be at this point. Maybe one day he’ll turn it around, but I don’t think he’ll have that drastic improvement as his big brother did. Maybe one day he’ll get to hoist up that trophy, but it’s either going to be on a completely different team, or a completely revamped squad.

  44. @Cevidence
    At this point in his career, he is doing more for his team than Peyton did. He already has his playoff win in his 3 year as a starter, where Peyton didn’t get his first playoff win until his sixth season.

    Eli is a notch below the elite and I think he is rising. I think the Giants are going to upset the Cowboys and win the NFC.

  45. Cevidence Says:

    Yeah he is doing more…but the end result wont be the same. And I’ve already proved my point that he’s not in the elitie. They’re may be only 3 names that belong in that category.

  46. Cevidence Says:

    Ok so I’m doin going back and forth bout this…question though….

    Did anyone see the 60 minutes “interview” last night? Plus Roger C. has filed a lawsuit today lol. Anything coming on that?

  47. “His daddy pulled strings to get him out of one of the most beautiful cities in the states (biased)”

    No. San Diego is certainly THE most beautiful city in the entire country, no questions asked. But who the hell cares what he looked like in a photograph?

    And Cev, you will get no argument from me that Eli isn’t an elite QB. As I said, slightly above-average (at this point). But you never hear the phrase, “Eli Manning just wins football games,” as you do with that fraud Vince Young.

  48. Maybe that’s cause Eli doens’t just win football games.

    If you watched the Titans game, Vince looked sharp. His passes were accurate, he moved around in the pocket and he made good reads. The only real problems were pressure off the edge, adn the fact that the Titans have always been committed to a ball control offense.

    Seriously, the gameplan was working well in the first half, but then when Rivers actually realized it was legal for him to pass longer than five yards, well things fell apart. The Titans defense was really aggressive in the box, dared Rivers to throw it and when he did, they got burnt.

    ONce they tried to stop that, LT got his room to run, and it was lights out. If the Titans defense couldn’t hold the Chargers, there offense wasn’t going to win it because they lack personnel. That was painfullly obvious in the red zone where the playcalling stunk up the joint.

    Trying to ignore this and call Vince Young a fraud is stupid. He played well, made no bad decisions but was just overmatched by a better team.

  49. In his past three full seasons as starting QB, Eli is 30-18. He’s been to the playoffs three times. Thanks.

    I watched every snap. To say VY looked “sharp” is hilarious. You nailed it later in your post: he was over-matched. Vince attempted 29 passes and threw for 138 yards. That’s an average of 4.8 yards per attempt. To put in perspective how absolutely terrible that is, Brodie Croyle finished dead last this year in yards-per-attempt. His average was 5.5.

    VY is a game-manager thus far in his career. Well, when you throw 9 TDs and 17 picks over the course of a season, it’s tough to say you’re managing the game very well, but it is what it is. If TEN didn’t have a Top 5 defense this year, they probably would have gone 6-10.

    VY has a chance to be good – he’s only in his second year, and the “talent” around him is laughable. I’m not burying the guy for the future. Just please stop rushing to anoint him so quickly when he hasn’t done jack shit to prove it.

  50. @Friedman

    I won’t say VY is not the man on TEN, I think he is a game changer right now, in the positive, and without him the team would be worse off.

    In saying that I agree VY should get better when more talent is added to the offense.

    I think its funny a lot of you all piss on Eli, but then go on to praise VY. I’m a VY and Eli fan, so there is no bias when I say this, but how in the hell can you boost Vince up and then slam Eli down. Eli has done more for his team than Vince has, and played at a higher level more consistantly than VY and all you do is bash the guy because of his last name.

  51. Friedman,

    With all due respect VY had no protection in the second half. His offensive line was terrible.

  52. Ted Cotrell made good adjustments in the second half. If you guys want to talk football then lets’s talk. There are sometimes other factors to consider. On the other side of the ball. SD offensive line played well in the second half giving Rivers time to throw the ball. Titans also had break downs in the secondary leaving guys wide open giving up the big play ball.

  53. Friedman,

    Also VY has NO receivers. I’m tired of people like you comparing guys like MV, DM, and VY. To guys like TB, PM, or even EM. MV, DM and VY have no receivers. NONE! Brady is the MVP because of RM. You know the guy that was on the MN team that held the scoring record for a season before the Pats broke it this year. Could you please look at the whole picture or stop trying to debate. Good WR get separation. They catch other wise uncatchable balls, they get YAC. VY is a young QB with WR that don’t get separation, run the wrong routs and drop passes. They dropped 2 to on the first drive of the game.

  54. Michelle that is 100% fact.

    Vince had a bad quad. His team committed to stopping the run which left receivers wide open. The field goal miss and Brown’s fumble were glaring.

  55. Michelle that is 100% fact.

    Vince had a bad quad. His team committed to stopping the run which left receivers wide open. The field goal miss and Brown’s fumble were glaring.

  56. Michelle, please, read my entire comment before making your point. I said this:

    “VY has a chance to be good – he’s only in his second year, and the “talent” around him is laughable. I’m not burying the guy for the future.”

    VY has terrible WRs. I agree.

    And to say Brady is the MVP “because” of Moss is the funniest thing I’ve heard all day. Brady doesn’t need Moss to be great – he’s a Pro-Bowler and 3 time SB champ before Moss ever put on a Pats uniform. Though Moss certainly has helped Brady into Top-5 of all-time discussion.

    I mean, where was Moss from 2004-2006?

  57. Freidman,

    Stats for Troy Aikman for his first 6 seasos with a great supporting cast.

    9 td 18 int
    11 td 18 int
    11 td 10 int
    23 td 14 int
    15 td 6 int
    13 td 12 int

  58. I didn’t say he needed RM. I know TB is a great QB. Has he had a season even close to this one befroe RM? Hell know. RM helped him blow away the competiton. Like I said RM was on the team that previosly held the scoring record for a season. I speak fact not fiction.

  59. Friedman,

    It’s truely a shame that I have to explain this to you again. RM was on the Raiders with what QB? He can’t throw the damn ball to. Now the quetion you posed about RM is laughable.

  60. Sorry guys I’m spelling words wrong all over the place. I can’t type. But you know what I mean. LOL

  61. Michelle you are all over the place. When did Troy Aikman enter this discussion again? I said that IN TIME – with maturity and better talent – Vince Young has a chance to be good, but that he isn’t right now. If you’d like to debate that specific point, then I’m all ears, but please, enough of your red herrings for today.

    You prove my point with Moss (and WRs in general). Moss needs a competent QB to get him the ball in order to be great; Brady is great with Reche Caldwell, Troy Brown, and Jabar Gaffney as his wideouts.

    In short, Moss ain’t shit without Brady/Culpepper (when he was good). Brady is a HOFer before Moss even put on the NE uniform. Case closed.

  62. Michelle,
    The Pats knew they needed REAL receivers and didn’t just go out and get one – they got FOUR – including the one that Mr. Football himself, Brett Farve, threw a complete fit over. Brady just slings it up for Randy – or at least that’s what HE said he does.

    BTW…the Titans secondary really looked like they needed Pacman yesterday.

  63. Winning the MVP honestly, is separating your stats from the competition Friedman. Your argument is weak. If it’s as simple as you say. Why hasn’t he won before now? Could it be that other players stats were better than his? HELL YEAH! Also, in defense of TB you might say that this is the first season he has had great receiver. But before you take that comment and try to run withn it. TB has the benefit of the best coach in the league and plays with (even his receivers) teammates that efficiently play within the game plan.

  64. Friedman, Vince Young’s performances with limited talent mean he is good right now, but not elite and deserves criticism.
    Eli’s success right now with good to great talent means he is limited and may prove to be a big bust. He was the number one pick who forced a trade to play for the team he wanted, so I think he needs to step up and be a great player.

    That’s how I see the argument.

  65. Friedman-

    Eli only had 185 yards on 27 attempts. He did have a good completion percentage, and he had the 2 TD’s. So he did have an efficient game, but he didn’t have a huge yds per attempt average either.

    VY v Eli… I would personally choose VY. I like mobile QB’s though. Even if I didn’t despise Eli, I’d probably like VY more in that offense. I do think people here might be a bit strong on the VY wagon, but he does show flashes of getting it. He will look off his primary target at least occasionally, and my big beef with my boy Rivers is he tends to stare down his target (GATES). Rivers is getting a bit better with that though, but he’s a 4th year QB. The fact that he jitters in the pocket drives me nuts though.

    But… I do think Rivers is better than Eli, at least in second halves. Rivers seems to play much better in the second half. I kind of wish the Chargers had snagged Roethlisberger instead, if they were going to snag a QB that year. I honestly thought they should’ve grabbed Gallery, because their O-line sucked so bad back then. Apparently I was wrong about Gallery, but even before the Eli drama, I didn’t want them to get him.

    VY has a bunch of young no names at WR. WR’s traditionally take a few years to develop, so I wouldn’t write them off yet. They could surprise you next year. I believe VY has a lot of potential, and so does that team. They’re a pretty young offense, and Fisher is a good coach. I’m holding off on deciding whether I think VY has got ‘IT’ until after his 3rd year, allowing for his WR’s to develop with him. I think if he’s still putting up this kind of game next year, then you can sort of peg him as overhyped. I do think he has potential to be great though.

    I really think Eli is what he is at this point. An average QB. He is capable of good efficient games (like yesterday), but I don’t think he’ll ever be in his brother’s class, and he’s had 4 yrs with a pretty decent offense.

  66. Friedman

    Moss went over 1,000 yards his first year in Oakland and despite being injuried, I believe he got over 700 yards his second year.

    Name his two quarterbacks in those years and you’ll see that Moss makes every QB look better.

    Randall Cunningham and Jeff George saw their careers revived simply because they played with Moss. Before and after their stints with him, they never put up similar numbers.

    Moss helps Brady just as much as Brady helps Moss, if not more. Because without Moss and with their piss poor running game, the Patriots would not have gone undefeated this year.

  67. Friedman,

    Now I have to stoop low and call you dumbass. Walter who the hell knows was to QB of the Raiders. He was terrible. Randy is WR. He goes up and catches everything. What the hell are you talking about this he needs a grest QB shit? Also address my comment about why TB hasn’t won the MVP before? I brought up Aikman because you mentioned VY, TD to INT ratio.

  68. Michelle: if you are looking for me to say that Moss has elevated Brady’s game, then there you have it: there is no doubt. And so has Wes Welker.

    Allen: the only quibble is that right now, VY is not a “good” QB – given the context of the talent around him, it would still be generous to say he’s even “average.”

    GMP: honestly, right now, if I had to choose between VY and Eli to start for that Giants’ team . . . right now, it would probably be a toss-up. But in two years I could very easily see VY having the upper hand.

  69. Friedman,

    I also think in a previous post you mentioned Aikman as one of the better qb’s of all time. I think you said that. I could be wrong so don’t hold me to it. It was you or Boney I think.

  70. Sorry Wes is an adequate player. He works hard but if he wasn’t playing next to RM he would not have had the stats he had this year. Guys like RM and TO take pressure off the entire offense because they are always double and sometimes even triple covered.

  71. Eli has Plaxico (Top receiver) Shockey and Toomer (Former top receiver)


  72. Welker is nice, but Randy Moss makes him 112 catches nice.

    Vince Young got his team to the playoffs in his second year, after almost getting them there his rookie year, I think that qualifies him for good.

    Does he have issues, of course. Throwing mechanics, accuracy and reading a defense are still and issue. But he’s in his SECOND year and his team has contended for the playoffs in both seasons despite very limited talent adn a host of injuries.

    Seriously, Lendale White and Chris Brown or not game changers. The Titans secondary is porous, yet they have contended with Vince under center and struggled with Kerry. This is obvious.

    To me, that makes Vince good. Not great, or elite, but good.

  73. “He goes up and catches everything.”

    Right, when he feels like i. This is Randy “I play when I want to play” Moss we’re talking about, after all. Also, in 2005, Kerry Collins was the QB for the Raiders. He threw for 3,800 yards, 20 TD, and 12 picks.

    “Also address my comment about why TB hasn’t won the MVP before?”

    Because he had never been the single greatest offensive talent. This year, with Moss & Welker, he is. Doesn’t seem too difficult to figure out. It’s kind of like asking: how many Super Bowl rings does Tom Brady have without Randy Moss? Or, how many Super Bowl rings does Randy Moss have without Tom Brady?

  74. Friedman says the reason Brady hasn’t won the MVP before is “Because he had never been the single greatest offensive talent. This year, with Moss & Welker, he is.”

    OKKKKKKKK……….who wants to take this??

  75. Oh boy, let me guess: Tom Brady really isn’t the MVP this year. It’s Randy Moss. The only reason Moss didn’t win is because he’s . . . BLACK.


  76. Miranda,

    Friedman talks fiction not fact. RM is one of the best receivers of all time.

    I dont’ know what BS Friedman is talking. The Raiders were terrible. Kerry Collins and Walter what’s his name a not good.

    Hey Freidman, what are RM career stat at WR?
    Speak the truth boy and stop sounding like one of those idiots on ESPN. Funny how you guys never talk this way bout good ole boy Farve. I guess not wanting to mentor the new QB isn’t being selfish.

  77. It is hard to disassociate recievers from their QB’s.
    That is why it would be hard for any WR to ever win the MVP. You can list the WR MVP’s for me, only one I can even imagine ever winning it would be Rice, but maybe there has been a WR MVP before, I really don’t know.

    Brady (as much as it pains me) is an outstanding QB, and was an outstanding QB before Moss got there. Moss (I’ve always liked for some reason, perhaps it is because I don’t like the Cowboys and he killed them) has always been an outstanding WR. Both Moss and Brady had a bit of off years last year when they had issues with the other half of their respective QB/WR combos. Together, you see what two great players can do together.

    If you can point out any other WR MVP’s, I’ll take this back, but as long as the WR is dependant on the QB to get him the ball, the MVP case is going to swing to the QB in MVP consideration. That is just how it is. Moss is great, he makes his teams better, and it is not coincedence that he’s been on two of the highest scoring teams ever, but I still think the MVP would be Brady’s.

    Should Brady buy a Moss a big fatass Rolex and bake him a cake as thanks? Hell yeah, cause he probably wouldn’t be MVP without Moss, but that doesn’t make Moss MVP.

  78. Friendman,

    Minimizing the racial injustices that black people have faced in sports and life is not funny. I will no longer respond to any of your post. If you were in my prescence this debate would now be in the parking lot.

  79. Michelle you have me cracking up. Please, focus – you are making about as much sense as Miranda usually does, and that is not a good thing.

    Randy Moss is the 2nd best WR of ALL-TIME. Is that good enough for you? I already said he elevated Brady’s game this year, as he is an obvious upgrade from Reche Caldwell.

    Brady is the MVP and for good reason. If you are trying to say that he didn’t deserve the MVP, then by all means, let’s hear it.

    As for your mini-Favre rant . . . um, what?

  80. The Pats shattered records and went 16-0. The offense was out of control. RM deserves most of the credit for that. Just throw the ball 50 yards and he will catch it. Like is said in a previous post. He is the only common factor on the two teams that have scored the most points in a season. He has great hands and stellar leaping ability. Tom Brady did his job and did it well but was not exceptional until Randy Moss came on board.

  81. That’s the point, Michelle – there is no “racial injustice” to Moss not winning the MVP, but you can be damn sure some idiot out there is saying there is. Ding ding ding!!!

    Read gmp’s post for a greater understanding of the QB/WR dynamic.

  82. Friedman,

    I have answered all of your questions. If you can’t read then that isn’t my fault. Again, I will not respond to any of your post. You are debating with a community of people who’s lives are very different from yours when it comes to fairness in this country. If you don’t respect that and want to make comments like ”Let me guess he didn’t win because he is black ”then take you insensitive ass on to the skin head site I’m sure they will welcome you with open arms if you change your name since they hate jews. Blacks have not won many things, gotten jobs, been hung, thrown in jail etc. beacause of their color. You need a better choice of words. Since the majority of the people voting on these awards are white. It isn’t a stretch for us to believe that. Like when Barry Sanders had to share the award with Brett Farve. That was BS. I don’t have a problem with Brady winning the award. Randy just deserves 50% of the credit. Now go AWAY!

  83. Friedman:
    “Because he had never been the single greatest offensive talent. This year, with Moss & Welker, he is.”

    By your own words you just negated why Brady should be the MVP…. didn’t realize that “single” meant the same as “two other people” – LMAO!!

  84. I don’t need to read anyones post about WR, QB understanding. I have my own mind and understand it myself. Again I speak fact not fiction BOY!

  85. You guys please leave Welker out of this. He is a good player but not a great one by a long shot. Randy is the reason why he had such a good year period. Without Randy there is no 16-0 and no other records broken.

  86. Oh and Friedman how did you like the stats for Aikman for the first 6 years. They were really off the charts. All that with an allstar cast. LOL!

  87. “By your own words you just negated why Brady should be the MVP”

    I know this is most likely a helpless cause, but I’ll try to break it down for you . . . reeeeal slow.

    Prior to this season, Tom Brady had never been the single greatest offensive talent in any one year. Incidentally, he had never won the MVP award. FACT.

    This season, with the ADDITION of (maybe those extra three words will help you out) Welker & Moss, Brady (and Brady alone) was the SINGLE greatest offensive talent in the league. Coupled with the Pats 16-0 record, he was the league MVP. FACT.

    I know it’s tough to comprehend . . . but come, you can do it.

    Michelle, you need to stop taking yourself so seriously. Moss not winning the MVP has nothing to do with race, EVEN THOUGH I’m sure there is some fool out there who will say otherwise – that was the whole point of the “joke.” Sheesh.

  88. For 99% of people, I know, it makes sense. But just in case.

    With the addition of Welker & Moss to the Pats team, that is.

  89. Friedman,

    Like you would ever admitt blacks not being treated fairly because oif their color. I never said that anyway. I said I didn’t have a problem with Brady winning the award. If Payton had RM he would have won. Fact before Randy Brady never had a season like this. Fact RM was on the second highest scoring team in NFL history. All Facts. Not speculation, not well maybe, nothing just FACTS!

  90. I don’t know the obsession (or relevance, for that matter) with Troy Aikman, but I see some shitty-ass stats during his first TWO seasons, and then for the next four I see:

    56 games, 62 TDs, 42 INTs, 66%, 7.5 yds/att, 214 yards per game. Not Brady/Manning numbers, but not too bad, eh.

  91. In 1998 RM had 1,113 yards and 17 td. His best season yardage wise was 2003 when he had 1,632 yards. In 1998 he was a rookie. How stupid of Friedman to say he needs a great qb to get his numbers. He makes the qb better. They don’t make him better. Just get him the damn ball and he will catch it. Now if you can’t throw the ball.. then well he can’t catch it now can he

  92. In 1998 he had 1,313 my bad. Sorry I can’t type.

  93. Friedman….you poor dumb thing…..lol!

    First of all the “single greatest offensive threat” is no longer the SINGLE greatest offensive threat if additional people are required to make him so.

    Secondly, the MVP – or since you don’t understand – The Most Valuable Player – is the person most valuable to their team…meaning the team could not achieve the same record/goals without their presence. If Brady is the MVP this year – he should have been it last year, and the year before, and the year before. He’s the Most Valuable Player….because of the addition of someone else?? LOL!!

  94. Yeah, Randy Moss should have been the MVP this year. If I’m not mistaken he only has a one year contract right? I guess his asking price is rising if that is the case.

  95. “If Brady is the MVP this year – he should have been it last year, and the year before, and the year before.”

    I will let the “logic” of this brilliant statement stand alone.

    Wow. Just . . . wow.

    Is Miranda under the impression that for a player to be an MVP, he has to be on the field by himself, playing 1-against-11? Goodness. You have said some truly baffling things on this site before, but this may take the cake. There are no words.

  96. Miranda,

    This clown is raising our pressure. I say we just ignore him. His points make no sense and he doesn’t answer the questions asked of him.

  97. They better pay him or he will be out like TO was in Philly. Let’s see if Brady gets even close to those numbers without him. DOUBT IT!

  98. Friedman do you not think that Randy Moss is the single biggest reason why New England is doing so well this season?

  99. Yo Miranda, DavidMac

    Instead of us taking turns pimp slapping Friedman across the face, we should just ignore him. If he can’t see the RM was the key to the Pats offensive surge then we are wasting out time.

  100. No, DMac, I think it is Brady. I think Moss is probably the 3rd or 4th most valuable player in the league this year.

    QB is almost always – always – more important to a team than a WR, as great as Moss is. GMP lays it out real well above.

    I think you could replace Brady with only one other QB – Manning – and have the Pats continue to play the way they have been playing this year. But I think you could replace Moss with any number of great WRs – Wayne, TO, Chad, etc. – who may not be as great as Moss, but who would fill in just fine, and the Pats would continue to click.

    Remember, Brady once threw for 354 yards and 3 TDs in a Super Bowl win, throwing to the likes of Deion Branch (pretty good), Troy Brown and David Givens. Obviously Moss makes it easier for him. But Brady runs that show. There is no question.

  101. “Tom is an amazing player. Every year I have been here, he has always been the MVP in my eyes, hands down. He is going to be remembered as one of the best that ever played in this league, and he has definitely put on a clinic this year with the guys that he has had around him. He deserves it, and I am happy for him.”

    – Ty Warren


    I guess he is wrong but Michelle and Miranda are right . . .

  102. Single greatest offensive talent is the wrong phrase.

    Brady had an oustanding statistical season, but I think Moss is a better “talent.”

    And I’m tired of the whole moss doesn’t play hard spiel. I believe Moss has only had two seasons in his whole career where he hasn’t had 1,000 yards receiving and 10 touchdowns. You can’t loaf on the field and manage that.

  103. Randy Moss has been MVP at his positon since he’s been in the league but I guess that is irrelevant. WR don’t win MVP though. What a shame. I guess the entire system is flawed. Remember who’s making the rules.

  104. Cevidence Says:

    I wont lie, but I think Brady wins the award as well. Moss has been playing SICK this year, making some defenses look downright foolish, but without a decent QB back there, WRs struggle.

    I’ll use my boy Steve Smith as an example. When Jake Delhomme is back there throwing the ball, Smith is one of the most dangerous offensive players in the game. But if you put David Carr back there, its suck-city for the whole Carolina offense. There are some WRs who would be great with just about any QB, Moss, Owens, Smith; but they still need a damn good QB to get the job done. Brady doesn’t surprise me one bit.

  105. Friedman

    There is no other receiver in the league on par with Moss. TO is the closest, and I don’t think he creates the same matchup problems as Moss.

    Without Moss and with the receivers you named the Pats would have success, but would Brady be setting records and would the team be undefeated.

    You created an unequal comparision and then tried to use that to prove your point.

    The fact is, you could replace Brady with Manning, Romo, McNabb, Palmer or Favre and the Pats would still be Super Bowl contenders. They might not be as great, but they would still be contenders. The same is true for Moss.

    That argument you just made was piss poor. Do better.

  106. Cevidence,

    Steve Smith is not Randy Moss. With exceptional receivers, you don’t need a great qb just an average to good one. The WR does the rest. Catch difficult balls, get YAC etc.

  107. Now you can’t have a terrible QB or they won’t be able to do their job.

  108. Did that fool link a article from a Boston newspaper to justify his stance??

  109. Cevidence-

    I love Steve Smith, and I live near enough to Charlotte so I see most of their games, and what Carr did to him… evil, just evil.

    There are a few WR’s that just need a competent QB that can throw a forward pass (Delhomme) and still be spectacular. But if they get a QB that doesn’t understand how to throw the ball downfield (Carr), they just can’t amass any stats.

    TO helped McNabb to an MVP worthy season (I don’t know who won it that year) and TO was obviously a boon to that team, but do you give him MVP over McNabb? I mean, that was the last time we’ve seen a great QB matched with a great WR and watch them both take each other to new heights, like Brady/Moss this year.

    I think we can all agree on one thing, 4th round pick for Moss was a mf’ing steal.

  110. I know the Pats better show RM the money or he will show them the door.

  111. Miranda,

    You ar TOO funny and are such a bright girl!

  112. Again, I can’t type. I’m also not sweet nurse Michelle today. After seeing The Great Debaters I’ve been pissed.

  113. Allen let’s break it down this way.

    Tom Brady has three Super Bowl rings playing with the likes of Deion Branch, Troy Brown, Jabar Gaffney, and Reche Caldwell. Only Branch could be considered “good.” (Funny, how has he done since leaving the Pats?) Ergo, Tom Brady has PROVEN that he can win without Randy Moss. And not just win, but win Super Bowls. And not just one title, we’re talking about three. No, he wasn’t putting up record numbers, but he was putting up Pro-Bowl numbers. He and HIS TEAM were excelling without Moss.

    Now. From 1998-2000, Moss played on one great and two good MIN teams, though of course he never reached a SB. From 2001-2004, the most games his team won in a single season was 9 games. All this time, playing with Cunningham & Culpepper, two above-average QBs (would you agree?). We all know what happened in 2005-2006. He stunk up the join in Oakland, one of those seasons where he had a very serviceable Kerry Collins playing QB. Their team was terrible.

    Moss may have been excelling in most of those seasons, but the majority of the time, his team was not.

    Now you tell me: who is the more valuable player? A QB who puts up Pro-Bowl numbers and wins 3 rings with average WR talent, or a WR who puts up Pro-Bowl numbers and wins zero rings with (on the whole) average talent?

  114. Michelle-

    Steve Smith may not be Randy Moss, but he’s far from being a slouch. And he gets his YAC, since the only way Carr could get him the ball was on little WR screens and such. Moss is better, but I love the way Steve Smith plays. He plays pissed, and how can you not love that?

  115. Friedman

    Link to a compliment from Tom Brady’s teammate is a little pointless don’t you think?

    I mean, I could link to a quote from Dick Cheney about how wonderful Bush is, but that doesn’t make it true.

  116. Miranda, too timid to back up your MVP “logic”? Lol.

    If Brady won it this year, then if he is really the most valuable, then he should have won it every year prior.

    /Miranda logic.

    That shit is too funny. You really outdid yourself there.

  117. “Link to a compliment from Tom Brady’s teammate is a little pointless don’t you think?”

    Not when the comparison is between two TEAMMATES. Who better to ask who is the most valuable than someone who plays with them every day?

  118. Allen,

    I already explained the first paragraph of Friedman’s argument in a previous post.

  119. How can Tom Brady’s past success with poo butt players justify him being the most valuable player in the NFL this year?

    Look, MVP of the league is not MVP of your team. In each of those previous years Brady, and his defense, were the most valuable players on the Patriots’ team.

    However, the only reason Brady is in the conversation for MVP this year is because of the otherwordly numbers he put up while have amazing team success.

    Those otherworldly numbers coincided with the arrival of one Randy Moss.

    However, as you pointed out, Moss has had some team success while putting up amazing numbers before he met Tom Brady. He may not have won a superbowl, but those Viking teams were regulars in the playoffs and were contenders.

    So, we have one player who has had great team success but never put up amazing stats. We have another player who has always put up great stats and has had good team success.

    So, which player has affected the other player’s performance more?

    I think it’s Moss. Brady would have contended without Moss, but he wouldn’t have had one of the greatest statistical seasons of all-time without Randy.

    That’s easy to see. The MVP honestly should be split between Moss and Brady. That would be the only fair decision.

  120. The problem with the way this discussion went, is I am supporting Brady’s MVP, and I don’t like him. I hate that team (except Harrison/Seau… but they’re pushing my goodwill).

    I think he should be MVP, and I hate the way this is just going to cause more announcer/writer slurping on Brady. It is disgusting that I’m defending something that will surely cause me to throw something in disgust or kick my dog in the upcoming years.

    But, he should be MVP, even though this is going to lead to 10 more years of super love, as if he isn’t getting enough as is. This will put him in the Favre’ian level of media jocking.

  121. Friedman, that’s bullshit. Seriously, if I ask somebody in Obama’s camp why he would make a great president, then post that as proof that he would make a great president, would that make sense to you?

    Don’t be stupid. Biased commentary is biased commentary no matter the subject.

  122. Allen-

    ‘The MVP honestly should be split between Moss and Brady. That would be the only fair decision.’

    That is basically what they did for those Rams teams. Warner- MVP, Faulk-Offensive player of the year.

    QB’s are going to get the love, they always will.

  123. I guess the coach, defense and kicker have nothing to do with the SB victories.

  124. I think the MVP should be split between Brady and Moss. It’s about statistical dominance and team success and Brady and Moss equally contributed to that for the Patriots. Welker is nice, but Moss is the difference maker on that offense.

  125. Nah, GMP.

    MVP has more cache than Offensive Player of the Year. The should split the award like they did with Stockton and Malone in the all-star game, or the way they did that year with Peyton and McNair.

  126. Brady is a great QB don’t get me wrong. The sole reason for his stat filled season this year is because of Randy Moss. Period. That statement doesn’t make Brady any less a great qb it simply explains a year stat wise that he has never had or come close to in his entire career. Now Randy Moss had had seasons that stat wise come close to this one. He has never had more TD’S but he has averaged more yards per season and per game.

  127. Oh yeah

    ON an unrelated note, I saw Great Debaters and enjoyed it. However, I was surprised Miranda and Michelle weren’t more disturbed by the lack of the character development for the main female character in the movie. Of all the debaters she had the least character development, she was basically the love interest of the little kid and the jump off for Henry Lowe. Am I the only one who noticed this?

  128. Allen

    Perfect. If Barry Sanders had to share his MVP with Farve then Brady damn sure should share his with Randy Moss. For OBVIOUS reasons.

  129. Beautiful point by Michelle. Beautiful point.

    Look, if the MVP is about team success and statistical dominance, then Brady and Moss need to get it. Period.

    Both of them are the sole reason why the other has achieved their respective milestones.

  130. Friedman….you have been owned so much on this own topic that its really sorta inhumane for me to engage with you further. Seriously, you should be tired of these virtual azz whoopings…but sadly, I fear you receive some perverse pleasure from it. I shiver to think what you’re doing in that basement right now.

  131. Barry split it with Favre, but they were on different teams. Hard to split on the same team.

    Plus, I feel Barry got robbed, and I’ve been hating Favre ever since. The gross verbal fellatio performed on him every time he does anything, has made me despise him more

    For a RB to get MVP he has to set records, that’s pretty much the only time a QB doesn’t get the reward. And who wins these things besides QBs/RBs? You can argue that Tom Brady isn’t MVP without his Left Tackle (and all those holds that line seems to get away with). Really it is a glamour award, and QB is the glamour position, I don’t really see any need to get worked up about it.

  132. Allen,

    I agree with you. I think unfortunately women were more in the back ground in those days thus the portrayal of her character may have been accurate. She was very good though. She played the little girl in Eves Bayou. She’s all grown up now. I’m looking forward to seeing her in more films. But as far as the movie goes, I think Denzel’s character really over powered the film. He was brilliant as usual. I’m surprised or maybe not that the movie was only nominated for 1 golden globe. Best Picture.

  133. GMP,

    I’m cool with Brady winning but why not make them share. This team did great things that have never been done before. How can Randy not share a lot of the credit for that.

    You right Barry did get robbed but your boy Friedman would never say that. That’s why his rhetoric is bs.


    LOL! Girl I needed that laugh.

  134. Barry’s team also went 9-7 that year. Just sayin’.

    Miranda: backing down from another challenge. Color me surprised.

  135. Isn’t the Most Valuable Player, the person who’s value to their team is so great that the loss of that person would prove irreparable harm to that team’s goals/win-loss record?? That person is truly the single most valuable person to the team’s overall success? If Brady is injured in week 7, while the Pats are 7-0…does his back-up come in and the team falters to a 2-7 record the rest of the way? Do the Pats NOT make the play-offs? What about Peyton? Could Jim Sorgi still get the Colts into the play-offs? We know that without Marvin Harrison it could be done, so quite naturally he is NOT the most valuable person to the Colts. The Pats made the play-offs without Randy, but they didn’t break every record and go undefeated. Does that make him more valuable because they did?

    Now take Devin Hester last year……….without him, do the Bears make the play-offs, let alone the Super Bowl?? If all you do is take Devin out and put another returner in, same exact situations, the other 10 guys still execute the same blocks – do the Bears still get the same number of TDs..or even half? Really….what is a MVP? When Aaron Rodgers came in for Farve in that Dallas game, he didn’t lead me to believe that without Farve they were out of the playoff picture that day if Farve didn’t come back. Please, take Walter Jones out of the O-line in Seattle….they will lose. MVP is really just a glorified title for best statistical season, not really the person whose value is the greatest to the team’s success.

  136. Miranda, science.

    It’s an arbitrary award by nature, but it’s still important. Sportwriters use the MVPs, an award they hand out, to justify placement in the hall of fame and player salaries. They use it justify ego and other things. So, winning the MVP is important because it defines a players value in the media, which then dictates how they will be treated by fans and often by their teams.

    It’s statistical dominance and team success, those are typically the two characteristics for the award. However, sportswriters change that up whenever they feel like it.

  137. I think it’s important to reward Moss for what he accomplished because before the season the majority of writers thought he would barely impact the Patriots team.

    Instead, he became a game changer, a scheme buster and then caught more touchdowns than any receiver before him.

    That needs to be noted and not dismissed by saying “well if he would have tried hard in Oakland then he wouldn’t have been given away.”

    How can someone make that argument, while simultaneously making the argument that the Raiders have lacked talent and coaching for years? How can they make that argument and ignore Moss’s stats his first year with the Raiders?

    How can you make the argument that Moss doesn’t play hard after looking at his career numbers?

  138. It’s like juding figure skating in the Olympics.

    People of color need their own Hall Of Fame anyway.

  139. “However, sportswriters change that up whenever they feel like it.”

    Allen….now THAT’S science!!

  140. Miranda,


  141. If the other team doesn’t have to specifically gameplan around you, then I really don’t see how you can be the MVP for your team. If the other team’s theory is “all we have to do is shut down (fill in name) and we win”…then there’s that team’s MVP…and then compare each team’s MVP to see who has the greatest impact…..OR…we can do it the conventional way and just see who ESPN annoints with nary a real reason.

  142. There is no way I’m going to run through everything so I will just say this.

    Brady is a great QB and has had many good (above average WRs). When he first came in he had 3 good WRs, I believe Branch, Patton, and Boston. They got rid of Boston and Patton, and Branch came into his own as an elite receiver, he and Tom made good but no excellent numbers, like this year. They get rid of Branch and Tom has Gaffney and Caldwell, they do ok but they fall a notch in on-field achievement and clutch play making ability.

    Then along comes Randy. He comes in and all of a sudden, a horizontal passing team turns into a vertical team. Randy allows them to change their whole offensive strategy. He comes in and all of a sudden, Brady makes Manning look like a QB a notch below him, before this season no one would think and no one would say Brady was a better QB than Peyton, but when Randy comes he is now an ATG and HoF QB. Brady admits that Randy has made the game easier for him, all he has to do is throw it up. Bellicheck, says Randy is the smartest WR he has ever had as well.

    All this is said, because there is no way in hell you can name another player, other than Terrell Owens, who has taken a team from contender to such heights in one season. NO ONE.

    For Randy Moss not to get a single vote for MVP is ridiculous. I don’t think its a racial thing, I believe its more positional, but still, in my eyes the Pats without Randy Moss, keeping Stallworth and Welker, would they would not have a perfect season, Brady would not have the TD record, Brady still would be rated as a QB below Manning and tied with Palmer, and the Pats would still be a run oriented offense.

    Randy Moss changed the way the Pats play football, thats screams MVP to me.

    I’m done on it now though.

  143. DavidMac,

    As much as it pains me to say this. You make very good points.

  144. I totally agree with DM…no Moss….no 16-0.

  145. Cevidence Says:

    Good points DM. But QBs get all the shine and all the spit too…just depends on the way the winds blow…

  146. Deion Branch was the only “good” WR Brady had ever played with before this season.

    You give Brady the WR tandem of Wayne & Harrison all those years, and his and Manning’s roles would have been reversed, statistically speaking. And Brady would still have the rings.

  147. @Friedman

    Wayne is relatively new, for the most part Harrison was Peyton’s main weapon and as much as I like Wayne and Harrison, both being no. 1s I would say Randy Moss is head and shoulders over both of them because of his size, hands , and speed.

  148. Cevidence Says:

    If you gave Moss – Steve Smith’s playing attitude, you would have the greatest player to ever touch the field…

  149. I think we can all agree that they got the heist of this century, only getting Moss for a fourth round pick. Only other recent trade that comes close is the Colts giving the Rams Marshall Faulk for a 2nd round pick, but that was in 98 or 99.

    Regardless of who you feel is MVP, 4th round pick for Moss? Nobody else in the league could jump on that? 30 stupid GMs… 31 including Al for giving him away for a 4th rounder.

    And I agree with Cev… I love Steve Smith’s attitude, you almost forget the dude is 5’10”, he plays so much more aggressive and stronger than that.

  150. Steve Smith is definantly an elite WR. I wish he could play for a better team.

  151. Cevidence Says:

    HEY don’t say that buddy. Once my Panthers stay healthy the NFC is going to be COMPLETELY different…..

    All they have to do is convince Bill Cower (sp) to come out of retirement…he already lives in Raliegh

  152. John Fox is just as good a coach as Cower. The only thing that killed you all was your QB problems and a weak DL.

    I would say, Carolina should make a move for Leftwich or Aaron Brooks, in the offseason. Cheap guys who would be an upgrade from Moore, Carr, and Delhomme.

  153. Friedman, with your comments about what Brady would have done with Harrison and Wayne aren’t you using random conjecture about what would happen if the world was a totally different place?

    Cause, I sure have noticed that you hate when the black folks use that same conjecture about how certain athletes or issues would have been treated differently if the races of the athletes involved were different. Particularly comments about a certain Michael Vick.

    So, are you using random assumptions to buttress your points and then castigating others when they do the same? Cause, well, that kind of sounds hypocritical. And I know a God-fearing, tax cut loving, conservative like yourself couldn’t be a hypocrite.

  154. What happened to Julius Peppers? Was he on roids?

  155. Further, Allen. You are not reaching far enough.

  156. Cevidence Says:

    LOL…yeah I was jokin about Bill. I never really liked him. Like I said once everyone gets healthy things will chance in the NFC South. As for J. Peppers and steriods…ok he was suspended in his first year for a “banned substance” but since then he has been a monster. I really think it had something to do with the lung or kidney sickness he had over the summer. Stuff like that can wreck your physical presence and ablities if you dont take the time to fully recover. Next year…just watch, it’s going to be Beast Mode all over again for them.

  157. I’m not reaching Friedman.

    I pointed out a strange, strange hypocrisy in your comments.

    On one hand, you can understand using hte argument that if Brady had Harrision and Wayne he would be just as good.

    On the other had you can’t understand that if Vick was white he would have been treated differently.

    Same basic premise at the core, but you seem unable to grasp it. That seems curious to me.

    I mean, it’s a proven fact that Brady has been outstanding with an elite receiver. It’s a proven fact that black athletes are treated differently than white athletes by the media and fans.

    Yet, you can’t seem to grasp the similarity between the two arguments. That’s either an example of willful ignorace or deception.

    Which one is it?

  158. All ya’ll SHHHH! You are killin my piece for Friday 😉

    Love the discussion. Friedman you are getting a little soft man. Too much TSF?

  159. Mizzo,
    How? Are you writing a piece on bi-polar schizos who ramble incoherently on TSF in an effort to prove racism is a figment of the rest of our collective imaginations? If so………..sorry.

  160. That would be such an extra teenie piece Miranda.

    Anyone with a brain knows the common denominator between the two most prolific offenses in history is Randy Moss. That is a fact. There’s no denying it. Hiding it or Tom Brady sack riding it.

    What the hell is that? So Tom Brady (Go Blue!) chucks up balls to the end zone in double coverage and gets credit for a touchdown? Bullshit!

    Like so many of you have mentioned soooo many times; This team does not go undefeated without Moss. Wes Welker had a career year because of strong safeties covering him. I could go all day on this, but I have work to be done, so I’ll shut up.

    It was a slap in Moss’ face that he didn’t win Offensive Player of the Year. I guarantee you it was because of his post game comments after the Giants win.

    Lil B@tches! If Moss was on another team he would still be getting slammed.

  161. Dachy…

    […]Wild Card Weekend 1/6/08: Tampa Bay Buccaneers vs. New York Giants « The Starting Five[…]…

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