Shots Fired At Pacers Guard Jamaal Tinsley

jamal_tinsley.jpg
The latest pro athlete target

I guess professional athletes aren’t being targeted Jason. What planet are you on? Can’t wait to hear what you have to say about this. Jamaal Tinsley is the latest athlete to have his well being put in danger. This is getting ridiculous. It’s time for athletes to seriously think about taking the necessary security measures.

Jamaal Tinsley of the Pacers and several companions were shot at by someone with an assault rifle outside the Conrad Hotel in Downtown Indianapolis early today, and a friend of Tinsley’s was wounded.

Police were called to the hotel at about 3:40 a.m. after Pacers equipment manager Joey Qatato, 48, was struck in both elbows as he sat in the back seat of Tinsley’s Rolls Royce. Tinsley, 29, was in the front passenger seat.

An official at Methodist Hospital said Qatato was treated and released before noon.

Sgt. Paul Thompson, a spokesman for the Indianapolis Metropolitan Police Department, said that after the shooting at the Conrad, 50 W. Washington St, two of the three vehicles in Tinsley’s group followed the shooters in a chase to Monument Circle, two blocks away.

Tinsley’s brother, James, fired a weapon during that chase, but it was unknown whether anyone was hit. Jamaal Tinsley was not involved in the chase, Thompson said.

Pacers coach Jim O’Brien said Tinsley was excused from practice today “because he went through a traumatic experience last night and we wanted him to get away from basketball for the day.”

A meeting with Tinsley is scheduled for tomorrow, the coach said.

O’Brien said he was relieved that nobody was killed in the incident, but that being out that late was the “wrong decision.”

“I would think as we all suspect, nothing good happens after 1 o’clock if you’re around alcohol or around an environment where there could be weapons. Nothing good can happen in that situation.”

The Pacers played Friday and had Saturday off. The team has no curfew, though practice was set for 11 a.m. today.

Thompson said the incident began at a club called Cloud 9 on West 38th Street.
A group was giving members of Tinsley’s crew a hard time about the expensive cars they were driving – a Mercedes, Rolls Royce and Dodge Charger – and the amount of money they made.

Tinsley and at least seven others were riding in the three cars, according to the written report of the incident.

Tinsley’s group left the club but realized that they were being followed by a gray Chrysler and a dark pickup truck, Thompson said, so they pulled into the Conrad instead of going to Tinsley’s downtown condo, where they were headed.

The shooting began after they reached the hotel, Thompson said.

Conrad’s General Manager, Greg Tinsley, who is not related to Jamaal, said the player’s group had no connection to the hotel but likely sought it out as a refuge from the confrontation.

“It makes sense that they would stop in a public place open 24 hours a day and where there are people to help,” Tinsley said.

No employees witnessed the shooting, but a few were on duty inside the lobby while it occurred. Tinsley said Qatato went inside the hotel to ask for help after he was shot, and the employees called emergency medical services and police to the scene.

Conrad employees who assisted Qatato were not allowed to comment on the incident as part of the policy of Hilton Hotels, which owns the Conrad.

Tinsley’s Rolls Royce was struck by at least three bullets, including one in the windshield and two in the driver’s door window. The Charger also was struck and was found to have five bullet holes, Thompson said.

Police say the rounds came from a .223 caliber assault rifle. Thompson said it was not unusual to see such a weapon used in street violence.

Only one person was arrested on the scene – Antoine Toon, 31, a member of the Tinsley group who was wanted on an unrelated Georgia warrant for dealing a controlled substance.

Thompson said the detective working on the case had not determined if anyone else in Tinsley’s entourage will face charges.

James Tinsley, who returned fire at the shooters during the chase, has a gun permit.

Thompson said this afternoon that police had no suspects but were looking for the two vehicles driven by the attackers.

Tinsley is scheduled to stand trial next month in a separate incident. He and teammate Marquis Daniels are due in court Jan. 14 on charges stemming from a bar fight at the 8 Seconds Saloon.

A grand jury indicted Tinsley on a felony charge of intimidation, and misdemeanor counts of battery, disorderly conduct and intimidation from the Feb. 6 incident. Daniels is charged with battery and disorderly conduct, both misdemeanors.


Pacers beat writer Mike Wells contributed to this report.

200 Responses to “Shots Fired At Pacers Guard Jamaal Tinsley”

  1. You what’s going to happen, that aftetr John Lennon died, (27 years yesterday)entertainers started using professional security and I would not be surprised that it starts to happen with althletes. Unlike 1980 when the top players made 1,000,000 a second string shooting guard is making millions annually in 2007. I can see the security at these events tightly controlled from now on (even camps for children) which is a shame but no surprise. It happens in Russia, Spain and Columbia where the parents of star soccer, tennis and cricket players are kidnapped and ransomed.

    What happens around the world is now happening in America so we should not be surprised. Remember when the Russian Mob kidnapped Sergi Federov’s father a few years back? It’s par for the course in a country building towards extemes the Super Rich and the Super Poor and the safety net in the U.S. shrinking everyday. So Tinsley’s being shot at is not unusual.

  2. Of course it’s not unusual. It’s discouraging this happened so close to Sean Taylor’s death.

  3. sorry for the misspell the computer is going slow.

  4. You don’t have to apologize for that brotha.

  5. Yes it is Mizzo, but I have read it happens to Brazilian and Argentian star players that you usually have to keep your family in a compound of sorts and I hope that doesn’t happen here.

  6. Sure seems like it’s a strong possibility huh?

  7. Chuck D and I were having a conversation one night on this very subject. He’s made choices that have put PE in a position to be icons. Athletes have to do the same by making certain choices a priority.

  8. Jemele Hill Says:

    I don’t want anyone to misunderstand. No one deserves to be murdered. No one deserves to be shot at. No one deserves to have their life challenged.

    But man, if I’m Tinsley, there is no way I get caught out there at 3:40 a.m., particularly in a city where I’ve already had beef AND out with someone wanted for dealing drugs. Not smart.

    As a black man, you already face a certain amount of imminent danger. You are increasing the existing danger with every wrong choice. Plain and simple. In a perfect world, I’d love for any young athlete to be able to hang out until sun came up and just have a good time, but that’s not the reality. Especially in Indianapolis, which is a small, big city. Someone like Tinsley is easily a sitting duck. Given what has happened to athletes — especially those like Sean Taylor who weren’t out late or putting themselves in a precarious position — Tinsley has got to be smarter than this.

  9. There’s a time for all of us to grow up and for athletes, it’s sooner than later.

  10. It’s a sad state of affairs when young brothas, rich or poor, don’t have the freedom to live their lives as they see fit because something like this happens. My question is, what would’ve happened if Tinsley drove to his condo….would dudes have tried to clown on him like Eddy Curry, Antoine Walker, Flip Murray etc, etc. People aren’t even allowed to live freely because of stuff like this…regardless if he’s a sitting duck, if he’s out with friends, not causing trouble, whats the harm? If they’re supposed to become hermits, then let em know, but for the coach saying he used bad judgment in being out is asinine and irresponsible

  11. I felt down last night reading some of the last columns about Sean Taylor’s murder and put on ‘What’s Goin’ On’ by Marvin Gaye and almost forty years later we’re still asking that same damned question.

  12. O’Brien said he was relieved that nobody was killed in the incident, but that being out that late was the “wrong decision.”

    “I would think as we all suspect, nothing good happens after 1 o’clock if you’re around alcohol or around an environment where there could be weapons. Nothing good can happen in that situation.”

    ———————————–

    Man fuck off with all that bullshit. You coach the team, Tinsley aint your boy! I don’t party and I do have a problem that some of these cats don’t wise up about the party going and potential for confrontation. Still it is human nature and definitely natural for an athlete to try and blow off some steam between games.

    People have a love/hate relationship with wealth and fame. I love it when I have it, I hate it when you do. Still if more celebrity isolates themselves from regular folks, you’ll have some asshole saying they are arrogant and elitist. If they don’t you have a repeat of this incident or Sean Taylor’s.

    Only one person was arrested on the scene – Antoine Toon, 31, a member of the Tinsley group who was wanted on an unrelated Georgia warrant for dealing a controlled substance.

    My bullshit-o-meter is tingling on this one. Someone will say it’s obvious, but the police will be the police, and they have their priority straight.

  13. “People have a love/hate relationship with wealth and fame. I love it when I have it, I hate it when you do. Still if more celebrity isolates themselves from regular folks, you’ll have some asshole saying they are arrogant and elitist. If they don’t you have a repeat of this incident or Sean Taylor’s.”

    I think there’s something else going on here. I think this isn’t about people hating wealth and fame as much as about people hating people who flaunt their wealth and fame as an antidote to their own doubt about their own self worth, without appreciating that other people also have doubts about their own selves too.

    Mo’ money, mo’ problems is only true if you can’t figure out how to address fear of success and doubt about self-worth.

    The way wholly successful people address that is to create BIG, MASSIVE visions for themselves that include how they will affect other people’s lives. For example, the question might be, “What are you trying to do THROUGH basketball? THROUGH football?”

    is the goal just to make the league? Do you only go TO the finish line? Or can you go THROUGH the finish line as every high school track coach commands?

    We don’t often get exposure to this way of thinking. If we did then I believe more people would realize that what we do is not only about us.

    So, WADR, I believe it’s more complex then that.

  14. I agree with all of you. Once again this shows the sad state of our society. It is sad that young men can’t go out and have a drink without worrying about getting shot. On the other hand America is returning to it’s violent ways and many souls are out of control. Something has to give. Young people today are lost. Something has to be done. Rich or poor we are all targets. You could be at the mall or the bar and find yourself looking up at a gun. WHAT’S GOING ON?

  15. thebrotherreport Says:

    I don’t believe in any one person living in a bubble or in fear, but I am a realist and if I’ve got the bread Tinsley has, I’m partying at my place. The majority of these altercations happen in clubs that have closed or are close to closing up for the night. Any beef that jumped off in the club is going to spill out into the streets. My mom always said two things were open after 2 a.m. – legs and trouble.

    I see two things happening here: 1) Athletes are going to be targeted more, we live in a copycat society and unfortunately the death of Sean Taylor has some criminals out there thinking how they can build a better mousetrap.
    2) Athlete’s are going to take measures into their own hands, which isn’t good either.

    I don’t know what but something has to be done to curb this problem. By the same token athlete’s need to use some common sense and know that every place that they go to isn’t going to be a friendly place.

  16. Einstein’s definition of insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

    These big city clubs are Dodge City. Why would any athlete put himself in a position like this? Some people have privately called Pat Tillman a fool for walking away from the NFL money and dying in Afghanistan….. Is it any less foolish to get gunned down partying in these wild west clubs? Sure, a man is free to live and party as he chooses, but how wise is it to tempt fate, or to tempt jealous people with assault rifles?

    And why not buy a suit from Goodwill and drive a ’79 Volvo to the club? I do, and no one shoots at me…………….

  17. Well, let me just add church. Two shootings occurred in different states yesterday in church parking lots. The police are not yet sure if the incidents are related. I think 4 people were killed.

    Here are some of my feelings about the world today. First we need to combat evil with good. If you see someone today who needs help. Give them a hand. There is far too much evil running rampant. Here in the US we are more concerned with wealth than if a child is starving. From the president to Kimora Lee Simmons and those brats on MTV’S Sweet Sixteen. It’s just pathetic. Where is the love, kindness, and empathy for others. I was driving yesterday and looking at all of the land development ,so we can spend more money. Where will all of the animals go? Those who are greedy and self entitled will say just kill them all. This land was made for all species to share. The entire balance of this planet is off balance. We are destroying this planet and ourselves. No what are we going to do before it’s too late?

  18. By helping someone I mean simple things like gentlemen if you see a woman standing on the bus or the train give up your seat. Help an older lady carry her bags to the car. Ladies if you know a single person who could use a hand getting their kids to school or donate an hour to help babysit. Yesterday I saw an older gentlemen on the bus stop. His gait was unsteady. He was shivering from the cold since the zipper on his old coat was broken. It brought tears to my eyes. I doubled around the corner and parked. As I approached him I could see the cars stopped at the light. The people in their cars including some children looked at this man as if he was a piece of trash. I asked him which way his was going an offered him a ride. He lived at a nusing home about 3 miles away. He was very happy and appriciated the kindness. Now I know many of you aren’t going to stop and pick up stangers so find something else to do. We have become too selfish. Help you neighbor. The only thing that cures hate is LOVE!

  19. No one deserves to be shot at like that. Not at all. And yes a man in this free country of ours should be able to be out and about in the middle of the night as he please. But come on man (c)Chris Rock. There’s nothing wrong with laying low and using a little discretion either.

  20. I disagree rashad. This is America, there is NEVER ANYTHING WRONG with going out at anytime of the day, as long as what you are doing is legal. He was doing nothing illegal or wrong from what I hear, so for his coach to say he was wrong for being out late, is a b!tch move.

    I will agree it is high time for these athletes to start including armed security personnel in their entourages.

  21. What about helping a person in need? Is this where we are headed? Why don’t we just call out the National Guard and hide in our homes. Oh, I for got you can get killed there to. We need solutions people not more guns.

  22. Remenber it’s not just athletes who are being killed.

  23. @michelle

    speak for yourself. I carry my concealed weapon with me where ever the law permits. To many haters in the world trying to take something from people who work hard. If they try to move on me, they better hope I don’t get mine out first.

    As for helping, I don’t have to help anyone to get them not to steal from me. Its like you are saying people deserve to get robbed if you don’t give a bum a handout. Forget that. I got mine from hardwork, you need to get yours.

  24. Yeah I heard about this. As far as him being out at the club that is BS. He could have been home. Isn’t that where Taylor was shot, isn’t that where Curry was robbed. Isn’t that where Jalen Rose was shot at.

    People need to realize that one this is a money hungry hateful society. Always was always will be.

    Another thing the media is also to blame for this. Do I really need to know how much these players make. Even if they weren’t flaunting their money. I could go on ESPN or any other website and see how much money they make. Probably could find out where they live or where they are from. And maybe not only could find them but I could probably find their family members. Its just too much info out on these people.

    You see how politicians and their families are gunned down or kidnapped in other countries? This is what america is heading for. Some fools need some money kidnap some athletes child, mother or wife.

    This country has always been about the money and taking wealth from other folks if you don’t have it. Why should stealing or killing an athlete for their riches be any different?

    Just read what Eric wrote about other countries. This is the future of american sports life.

  25. DaveMac,

    I’m not saying that at all. I’m saying that America current climate of selfishness and get wealth now breeds this kind of hatred and insensitiviy towards others. We all need to change that. Or at least try. We seem to love watching the train wreck or people tearing each other apart. Why? Where has the love gone for our neighbor? We seem to love beating up on each other. Wrong has prvailed over right, bad over good and hate over love.

  26. Its not the media’s fault for showing people’s salary, its the criminals fault for trying to take something that isn’t their’s period.

    Stop making excuses for society’s garbage. Its no one’s fault except the law breakers.

    As for politicians being gunned down in the US, I doubt it, seriously, too much security for national politicians in this country. They got the message a long time ago.

    As for this country, its always been about finding a way to make money and doing it, stop tryying to re-write history.

  27. Kids have no one to turn to. We turn our backs on the elderly and war vets and lets just forget about the mentally ill, after all they are just crazy right? Wrong. It’s an illness just like cancer. But they get zero sympathy. We are all so self consumed.

  28. Phillip Drummond Says:

    Wonder why white athletes don’t seem to have these problems? As far as being the future of “American sports life”, seems like it is moreso the future of “Black American sports life” more thatn anything else. The saddest part is that it seems to be only black on black related….

  29. DaveMac.

    Who said politicians were being gunned down? I said they are greedy and don’t care. Do you not have a heart for your fellow man?

  30. @michelle

    The US has always been about making money with a dream, thats why people came here, we have that open opportunity to get rich quick. There have always been those out to take what the rich have had, that is human nature and it has been aroud as long as man has been living and its not going to go away. There is nothing you can do to ever change that, except make those who wish to take away your valuables think twice.

    Where has the love for our neighbor gone? Nowhere in my new neighborhood. The rest of your post seems like it is just longing for days that never existed.

  31. What the hell is wrong with you people. People are being shot at not just athletes. Was the kid shooting at the mall black? No, he was white and so were many of his victims. This is not about color. Young people of all races seem to be lost. The wrestler that killed himself,wife and child was white. Stop with the color crap and help some one. The teen that killed herself was a young white girl maybe if some one offered her a kind word she might still be here. The women who played with her emotions on my space was a sick white women so don’t come on here with the black people mess. There are many problems in this society across the board.

  32. Well Dave you just proved why money is the root of all evil. I guess we should just all sit back and watch the world go straight to hell.

  33. @ Michelle

    My world isn’t going straight to hell, I would hate to be where you are at though, especially if its that bad.

    As for the kid in the mall, why do you care about him. He killed 8 people, he along with that Cho kid at VT, they don’t deserve pity, only hate, anger, and dishonor. The same with Benoit and the like who take their personal problems out on other people. They don’t need a helping hand, they need a bullet in the head.

  34. DMac, chill with the bullet in the head speak.

  35. DaveMac,

    First of all my life is fine. But unlike yourself I care about others. Everyone mentioned above had serious emotional problems. Your words for them are harsh and offer no solution to the problem. If being well off is all that matters to you in this life then I would say to you, you are living in hell and your life is very empty.

  36. Why should I chill with my bullet in the head speak, those people killed innocent people and I should temper my comments about them. Give me a break. Those people are the scum of the earth, it would have been better if they killed themselves alone, than to harm other people.

  37. Dude, I understand the point you are trying to make, but that type of talk won’t be tolerated by this forum for obvious reasons.

  38. brotherreporter, “My mom always said two things were open after 2 a.m. – legs and trouble” I always viewed those as one in the same, my experience, legs are trouble.

    A person, on their time, should be able to go whenever and wherever they want. We use to blame a rape VICTIM because of her choice of clothing. We’re now blaming a VICTIM of attempted homocide, because of his material success. To suggest that Tinsley brought this on himself because of the car he was driving, is ridiculous. Rolling with your boys or whomever at 3 am in your Rolls, is not a crime in any jurisdiction. Someone trying to kill you, now that’s a crime. Our docus should not be on Tinsley being out, our focus should be on the crime.

  39. DaveMac,

    I also understand how you feel but have some empathy. You don’t know what conditions they existed under in this world. I’m not saying it’s ok to kill people under any conditions.

  40. GrandNubian Says:

    Not to jack this forum, but i just heard that Vick got 23 months. I’m sure miz will start a forum on it.

  41. GrandNumbian,

    I’m right behind you. Here we go with the MV circus. 23 months seems excessive unless he is can be released early for good behavior.I’m judging based on other dog fighting sentences.

  42. @Michelle

    when you kill innocent people, I no longer care about how you feel. No person who kills anyone because of a personal problem will ever get love from me.

  43. DaveMac,

    I respect how you feel. The problem is this kind of activity is on the rise in our society so there has to be a cause. We need to find solutions.

  44. Where is your proof that it is on the rise. There is a difference between an increase in news coverage and a actual increase in the occurance.

  45. Imhotep,

    I agree with where you’re coming from, but don’t. He SHOULD be able to go out when ever and where ever he wants, but reality often dictates otherwise. Yeah he’s the victim, no dispute. But there is common sense in play as well.

    What SHOULD be and what IS are often quite different. Often why the subject of race and media comes up on this site. The world just isn’t as it should be, you can either fruitlessly pound your head in the wall, or adapt. We SHOULDN’T be having this discussion, because in a perfect world people wouldn’t be jacking others for their stuff.

  46. I disagree with you gmp, he did nothing wrong, he was in his car when the shooting occured. Its not like he was in a club and shooting broke out or outside a club drunk, either case still not making a difference, because the bottom line is he was out doning nothing wrong and his car was shot. The only thing he should have had was a bullet-proof car and a security team.

  47. Jemele Hill Says:

    I wish this were a society where we could do what we wanted, when we wanted, but it’s not realistic.

    We all do it. There are certain parts of town we won’t frequent. Certain times we won’t be out. And for women, certain things we won’t wear to certain places. It’s called common sense, and I just don’t think it’s asking too much for athletes to use the same thing. Point blank: At 3:40 a.m., coming from a club, hanging around someone wanted for drug dealing…nothing good is going to happen. Yes, we’re all going to die some day, but we should do what we can not to speed up the process.

    USA Today had an interesting story about athlete-safety that ran on today’s front page. Again, I don’t wish anyone harm, but it’s just not a good idea to carry around thousands in cash or wear thousands in jewelry. Most of us wouldn’t do that, so to absolve some athletes from keeping a lower profile, is ridiculous.

    I’m not blaming the victim, just asking them to sometimes use a bit more common sense.

    Here is the USA Today story:

    http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2007-12-09-athletes-security_N.htm

  48. Jemele,

    Hi, thanks for chiming in on TSF. I agree with you, but how do we try and change the minds of todays youth? The problems with violence are across the board. Everyone is a target. You can’t even go to church without possibly becoming a target.

  49. @Jemele hill

    Where in the hell did any report say he was haning out with a drug dealer. If you are talking about the guy with the out-of-state warrant, the key to that would be that the guy had a OUT OF STATE warrent.

    The fact is it is not against common sense to party until the morning. He doesn’t have to live different because you think he makes too much money to be out enjoying himself. He and his entourage were attacked with assault rifles when they pulled to a hotel. There is nothing at all that shows a lack of common sense or anything on his part. He was targeted and they tried to kill him.

    Saying this is his fault is like saying a girl who was raped had it coming.

    You can say what you want about using common sense, but you are doing nothing but blaming the victim. Regardless of your protests.

  50. Over at ESPN.com, the headline is “Pacers decide not to punish Tinsley for involvement in shooting”

    Yet we’re not supposed to think it’s “blaming the victim.”

  51. David,

    What? That’s bs!

  52. See, now even thinking about punishing somebody for being a victim is stupid.

    I agree with Jemele with her take on this, but you can’t go punishing the victim of the crime, if he committed nothing illegal or against team rules. That shouldn’t even be a headline.

  53. I would not be surprised in the next 3-5 years there will be “members only” clubs in the U.S. like in those countries where kidnapping is very prevelant like I stated so the rich successful celebrity can party and feel safe without the hassle of jealous people who would rob them of their money, jewerly etc…

    I told a friend of mine ten years ago that the U.S. will be like medelin for sucessful people because of the openess and people haven’t learned from Lennon’s death. We are heading into an unknown abyss of extreme wealth and poverty where the media shows MTV Cribs, Kimora, Oprah and other celebrities lifestyle and people want it and will go to great lengths (legal and illegal) to obtain it. I think it’s sad really, because the odds of becoming a billionarie like Winfrey and a multimillionarie like Jay-Z , Russell Simmons, and Puffy are about a 3 billion to one for the average American and for someone who grew up in poverty that number increases ten-fold.

    HOW ABOUT TEACHING OUR YOUTH THAT MONEY ISN’T EVERYTHING AND LIVING A GOOD HEALTHY, LIFE AND LIKE WILLIAM DEVAUGHN SAID IN 1974

    “JUST BE THANKFUL”

  54. If you want to teach your kids that fine eric, I hate when people try to mandate how people’s lives should be run though. I also think its foolish to blame shows like Cribs, Life Syles of the Rich and Famous, and etc. as reasons for robbings.

    The fact is celebs (at least athletes) need body guards. Hollywood and Muscians already know this, athletes don’t want to do it for some reason. Hopefully they will take action.

  55. I agree Eric………….also David thats why I boycott ESPN. With a title Pacers decide not to punish Tinsley for involvement in shooting”

    What more can I say.

    Whats next asking a team if they will punish a dude for having bad credit.

  56. David Mac (Darius, Denardi, Friedman) or whomever the FUCK YOU ARE !!!! this site is about sports and finding solutions or did you not read Mizzo’s post in October. I wish you would take your white ass (or black as you claim) to J.T. the Brick, Bruce Jacobs, Whitlock or some other site where you would and your ilk would fit in. You go on a Black Alternative Sports site and then you don’t like what’s being said and then you “Bitch and Whine” about “bias” like Limbaugh and the other conservative pussies when you have plenty of sports and politcal sites that suit your ideology. I wouldn’t go on “Stromfront” or Town Hall complaining about bias when the site is conseravtive or in your case Neo- Nazi in tone.

    My concern is for Afro- Americans and how we are viewed in the lens of the media whether it comes from black, white or whomever reports on the Black Althlete male or female. Take your white/black ass to the Reverend “JESSE LEE” Peterson’s site or Stromfront you will be welcomed there with open arms and a noose or seig heil salute !!!

  57. Calm down eric, what did I say to upset you or are you made that I don’t “tote the line” on every thread?

    Chill out and post a reply when you are ready to act like a man instead of a child.

  58. Michelle,

    Leave DavidMac alone. This is a deceased equine you are attempting to inflict corporal punishment on. He will think as he will think. Never you mind.

    I had sent you e-mail today, please read it, especially the attachment. If you follow what was laid out you will grow in understanding.

    I agree with GMP and Jamele that common sense right now should trump the right to go where you want. This is America Inc. built on genocide, exporter of death and destruction and purveyor of selfishness and covetousness.

    And David Mac wise word to the foolish, if you’re gonna go John Wayne out there, it’s best not to advertise it, take it how you want.

  59. Most people who rob probably aren’t on the internet at websites like this.

  60. Sankofa…..doesnt “common sense” trumping the right to go where you want to go, sound a lot like…….surrender?

    I agree completely, but lets call a spade a spade. These athletes don’t have the right to go out to a club and have a good time until the wee hours of the morning…they just don’t.

  61. Well the alternative is to either carry a tool or bring security.

    Didn’t Tupac have security? And I am sure the Slave catchers would love to see an African celebrity packing.

    I hope it doesn’t sound like surrender, because that’s not my personality, it’s more choosing the right battle to die for.

  62. The idea that Tinsley shoud show common sense (not that common & not universal) and not be out in public after a certain time is again ridiculous. The man showed plenty of “common sense” he was out with a group, including a memeber that was legally armed (his protection) there were several other vehicles (safety in numbers) and he was engaged in legal activity. His situation reeks of common sense. Why should the man be a prisioner to his success? The man took the proper precautions.

    Again, there was an attempted murder of an innocent man’s life, where is the outrage? Clarify for me, at what point did Tinsley do something wrong?

  63. No it isn’t sankofa its called surrender or leaving in fear. Strange idea coming from a militant like you.

    Tupac didn’t have security when he was shot, but Biggie did. The fact is if someone is committed to killing you nothing will stop them, period.

    Security is a deterrent for opportunist though, and the people who came after Jamaal Tinsely seem like they were out for his head, not out to rob him. So it probably wouldn’t have mattered what time he was out or where he was at.

  64. @Imhotep

    Thank You for stating the obvious truth that these people seem to be ignoring.

  65. Nicole 10/20 Says:

    “IT’S THE ECONOMY STUPID”

    As the gap between rich and poor increases, so will the violence. It’s understandable that we would want people to “use common sense”,but as Michelle said, what about the churches and the malls??? Ok from now on lets hope that athletes never set foot in a club and never go out past 1am. Will that erase what is really happening in America?? I’ts a hater nation. There will be an uprising, I just hope that I’m prepared for it when it comes.

    One of my husbands dear friends won one million dollars in the lottery. It was the scratch off kind. I was sooo happy for him, but when I would tell people about his good fortune they would always say something like “I hope he needed the money” or “I hope he is a nice guy”. They couldn’t bring themselves to be happy for this stranger. He always needed a qualifier. The more we see images on television of people living a lavish lifestyle, human nature will always trump common sense. My grandmother always said “common sense ain’t always common”.

  66. wow are some of you all really that dense. “Hater Nation” , “uprising”, people have been robbing from the rich since man has been on earth. What makes you all think this is such an epidemic. You all are no better than the people at ESPN with your chicken little the sky is falling crap.

    The only message this hopefully sends is that athletes need bodyguards like musicians and actors.

    Upon further view of the situation though, this looked more like a hit than a robbery.

  67. DaveMac,

    The violence is reaching all of America rich and poor.

  68. tinsley had security, he has a bunch of friends, he pulled into a publice spot, he appears to have handled himself well. most people his age go to clubs. shit, most people his age who are wealthy go to clubs. Paris, Lindsay and Brittney are rich and they don’t seem to stay home at all.

    DWill made a good point about the atmosphere at black clubs and white clubs. There is a different vibe in both places, and that’s proven when stuff like this happens. Cats in the hood are hungry, and they are willing to do anything to eat. These cats at white clubs don’t have that same hunger.

  69. violence has always reached all phases of society, from Rome, Russia, France, and the US. This isn’t anything new, the only thing strange is how athletes don’t use bodyguards like other celebs.

  70. DAvid Mac

    Your theory and the one espoused by others are related. Wealth has been prevalent in every society and the wealthy have always been at risk. But, that hasn’t always been the case in America. Back in the day, celebrities and athletes were making big money, but some random player like Tinsley would not have needed security. Jordan, Magic and Bird needed security, but the modern day equivalent of BJ Armstrong didn’t need security. The money involved in sports has changed, but people also seem to dislike the wealthy more these days. When the general public didn’t know how much money their heroes made, the enimity wasn’t as prevalent. Things have changed.

  71. I’ve bounced in clubs all over the place. I said something similar Allen a while back in a comment thread. I spoke about how there’s no tension in White clubs. The atmosphere is fun. Shots passed all over the place and smiles all around. Major difference in Black clubs with purses being clutched and a bunch of mean muggin’.

    It’s a damn shame. We gotta get back our collective spirit.

  72. Yes it has always been the case in America. Celebs have always been targets for the underhanded in society here. I think you said it perfectly when you mentioned the people got paid more, that took them from being regular joes to being celebs themselves, in the same plateau financially as Jordan’s and Bird’s and they have failed to take appropriate measures.

    There is no evidence to support that people dislike the wealthy now then they did at any other time, so unless you have proof, there is no reason to keep saying that in my opinion.

    As for the public and superstar’s money, there have always been fascinations with celebrities and how much cash they got. Where do you get this old days stuff from.

  73. Allen says “When the general public didn’t know how much money their heroes made, the enimity wasn’t as prevalent. Things have changed.”

    Exactly brotha but with 24/7 news and evertime a player gets a raise reported or how big their house is or what car they drive. It is reason for concern.

    Check this out you ever realize how the media always points out about how a athlete especially a black has a expensive car or house or they make a certain amount of money. I mean is it really nescessary.

    I mean do I need to know that Tinsley has a rolls royce. Isn’t his car being shot up good enough.

    Even some of these sports writers are haters.

  74. I mean here is dallas there is a road rage shooting every week it seems like. And they never tell the victims car. Yet a athlete car gets shot out and they tell me the athletes cars make, model, how big the rims are, what color the car is.

    D@MN do I need to know all that. Or are you saying thats what he gets for riding in that????

  75. Jemele Hill Says:

    I really wasn’t trying to blame the victim. Truly. Tinsley doesn’t deserve this, no matter what.

    But we gotta be real. As I said, most of us reach that point where it’s uncomfortable for us to be out. I reach it about 1, cuz I’m old. The clock isn’t what did this to Tinsley, but if you combine all the factors, look at all the evidence, no one on this site can tell me, yeah, I would have done the same thing.

    – Would you be out until 3:40 a.m.?

    – Would you have taken three cars to the club — a Rolls, Mercedes and souped up Charger?

    – Would you have rolled with one of your boys, who you know is a bit shady?

    If you add all of this up together, it just leads to dangerous places. I’m all for freedom, but even in our daily lives, are you telling me you exercise your freedom without thought? If you have kids, you know innately there are certain things you can’t do, certain places you can’t be?

    Why do you think the thought process should be any different for Jamaal Tinsley?

    True freedom isn’t being able to do what you want. True freedom is being able to accept your limits and use wisdom to adhere to them.

    Jamaal Tinsley was a good aim away from dying. We shouldn’t take that so casually. He couldn’t control who followed him, but he could control being there in a situation. Accuse me of being paranoid and old fashioned but NO ATHLETE SHOULD BE THERE WHEN THE CLUB CLOSES. When a mass of people let out, bad things are bound to go down. Tinsley was sitting there, in the parking lot, with his boys. Indianapolis is a small, big city, Everybody knows each other. Y’all see what happened to Stephen Jackson, who had to bust caps in the air because he was getting run over.

    There is nothing wrong with practicing a little common sense. That’s all I’m saying. You all use it when you go out, so why y’all trying to act brand new, like athletes shouldn’t do the same?

  76. Preach sista preach😉

  77. Jemele,
    That uneasy queasy feeling you got when you wrote that …..the same uneasiness I feel reading it and knowing that you’re absolutey right….the same uneasiness those on here feel when they read it and quietly understand what it truly means or those who still write to justify why its okay Tinsley was out because accepting that uneasy feeling is too much……..(sigh). You’re right in what you say….but we can’t let go of the unease about it….once we let go of that anger at knowing that’s how it “has to be”……its really over for us. Accepting unfair limitations on your life shouldn’t be with a smile on your face. I know and accept that what you say is how it is….but I’ll be damn if I like it.

    Now….where is my blood pressure medicine??

  78. Let me get this true freedom is not being free, but confined. Wow, jemele sounds like you got that from a slave master’s diary.

    There is no way in hell I’m going to agree with you or anyone else who tries to make it seem like it is wrong for him to be out. I don’t see Jemele Hill saying its wrong for all the Hollywood stars and Famous musicians to be out late. When it happens to them, the blame and accountability ALL goes on the perp, not the victim.

    Yet when a black athlete, who is wealthy, enjoys himself, enjoys to fruits of his hard work, he is supposed to be a prisoner of fame? That is ridiculous and it is even more ridiculous because its so called “pro-black” journalist out there pushing this crap up like its true.

    Fact is Jamaal Tinsley did nothing wrong, showed absolutely NO LAPSE in judgement by being out, and handled himself extremely well in a terrible situation. Instead of you all hand wringing abuot why he was out so late, why don’t you guys make some noise about why the shooters haven’t been found yet.

  79. Nicole 10/20 Says:

    Jemele,

    Whenever there is a bombing in Isreal the Israali’s go right back to the market. They continue their lives. When there are suicide bombs in Iraq the people continue with their lives. Should the people in Colorado not go to church???? What about the mall in Omaha??. When all of those black people died here in Chicago in a night club I was scared to go nightclubs for a while. I was in the minority though. They are not going to sit at home. After this Vick shit.. Fuck what you all believe in the media and white America I WILL ALWAYS BELIEVE THAT A HUMAN LIFE IS NO WHERE EQUAL TO A DOGS LIFE. I don’t care what ESPN and all of the white “people” say. I’m tone deaf now. FREE MIKE VICK!!!!!!! I’m tired of caring about their opinions and what they think of me and my people. PARTY LIKE A ROCKSTAR!!!! until 5am if you want. Hell, stay out for a whole week if you need to. Do what you do.

  80. DMac, this is not about freedom, this is about using proper judgment…period.

    I understand your point–and it’s certainly valid–but there are repercussions.

    You stay out, you might suffer grave consequences. Is it really worth losing your life over DMac? This goes for any and everyone. It’s not exclusive of athletes.

    Success and comfort in life are dictated by the choices we make.

  81. Jemele wouldn’t be saying off the crap she posted in this thread if it was Serena of Venus Williams who got shot. We know they party early into the morning, but I don’t hear anything from Jemele saying how that is not safe or they are being irresponsible.

    She must reserve such comments strictly for young black men. If someone attacks one of us with an assualt rifle while we are enjoying life, we need to be more careful and exercise better judgement. The shooter be damned.

  82. DMac you are 100% correct, but you have to understand times dictate better judgment.

  83. I disagree with you on the “times” angle. Nothing is different today than it was before. Do you think people weren’t poor when Dr. J, Wilt , and those cats back in the day were in the club? You think they didn’t have haters. hell looking at the stats, blacks were poorer then than they are today. The thing is you all want to make this some indictement on society, instead of calling it what it is criminals trying to take something away from a person who has something.

    That is all it is. Stop trying to turn it into something it is not. If role-players are starting to make superstar money, it is on them to hire better security. That obviously does not apply in this situation because this was a straight up attack, yet you all are ignoring that. This attack could have happended in his home, it could have happend at 10. You don’t shoot up three vehicles with an assualt rifle to rob a person.

  84. Jemele,

    You say you’re not blaming the victim, yet the first thought that you write is “why was he out at a club that late?” Not:

    — Wow, an assault rifle being used in the streets of Indianapolis? Maybe this country needs to take a hard look at gun control.

    — With these shootings taking place at Indy clubs, maybe the police should show more force in those areas, or place undercovers in the clubs to head this sort of trouble off before it starts.

    — This isn’t the first time a Pacer has been involved in a shooting in Indy. What’s the deal in that city? Is it something about the city in particular, or the Pacers players in particular? If it’s the players, how are they contributing to the problem?

    — How can black people criticize black athletes for leaving or ignoring our communities, when they get robbed or shot up when they do stay in the community?

    — Maybe I should talk to other players in the league to see if they have similar club experiences in their cities, or when they visit Indy. Maybe I should talk to Colts players to see if they have similar experiences, or if it’s something that only happens to the Pacers.

    Instead, you jump to the laziest, most useless answer, in my opinion. Young men are going to go out. And as we’ve learned in the last year or so, staying at home isn’t a cure-all (just ask Eddy Curry).

    If you’re going to write about this, I think professionalism demands that you dig deeper. (And just to be clear, I’m not accusing you of being unprofessional. A web comment board is the perfect place for idle speculation. But if you plan on writing a column on this, then you have to get deeper.)

  85. Again DMac you are correct. Aren’t your points the obvious? You are also correct in stating this most likely wasn’t a robbery. The shooters were trying to take the whole crew out.

    Scenario, what do you think Tinsley’s loved ones would have said if he died in the shooting? Answer and we’ll go from there.

  86. @Mizzon

    They probably would have said “Why?”

  87. Yes of course, but you don’t think deep down they would have said–albeit privately–why was he out that late given past incidents?

  88. @ mizzo

    No i don’t. Having a cousin killed leaving a club, no one asked was bothered that he was leaving a club, why should we have been. We wanted to know why he was shot, what happend.

  89. Dude you are incorrigible with your stubbornness. Damn! lol

    You think Tinsley will be in clubs late at night given what just happened?

  90. @mizzo

    In a couple of months yes. He will be out partying like usual and there is nothing wrong with that.

  91. He would be a fool.

    So just so we’re clear. This is all about the choice and not the possibility of death that looms given recent incidents involving professional athletes–and society at large (obviously)?

  92. For all of you flying that better judgment banner, that’s a vague term. You can get accosted anywhere, upscale club, parking lots, resturants, in your home for god sake. Athletes go out all the time, and hang out until the wee hours of the morning, and nothing happened, thats the norm. I don’t have all the facts, but I fail to see where Tinsley employed poor judgment.

    If it was not clear before, it should be abundantely clean now, to be a black athlete you’re in a no win situation once you get off the plantation field. If you go to a club and a fight breaks out, you’re labeled a thug. If you go out, mind your business, and someone tries to KILL you, it was because you used poor judgment, WTF.

  93. Imhotep, with all due respect brotha, when does it become a time when athletes take themselves out of harms way? We reference a minority of incidents recently that are home invasions–duly noted–but enough is enough. I’m thinking about my kids when I speak on this and if my child was getting into altercations (his fault or not) and each time he was getting closer to death, I’m putting a foot in his ass!

  94. @Imhotep

    You are the only other person in this thread making sense.

    @mizzo

    No he wouldn’t be a fool. You think he should just go to work and go home and stay there because he is successful, and that is simply BS. You are no better than the MSM if you really think like that.

    The fact is it is crazy to even be discussing Tinsley like he errored in any way. A person tried to kill him. Period. Tinsley is a victim, the equipment manager is a victim. You all should be angry at the shooter, you should be asking why the crime happend. You aren’t, you all are blaming the victim and that is pathetic.

    He used great judgement when he went out and enjoyed himself, like any successful person would do. He had his entourage and they were headed back to his home and he was attacked. Period. He was a victim who was either targeted or at the wrong place at the wrong time. He is not responsible in any way, shape, or form for people who want to do bad things to him. To continue to try to blame him is to further tarnish this sites credibility as being an alternative sports media outlet, because you all are doing nothing but spewing the same garbage as ESPN.

    I hope Serena Williams gets raped, so you all can come on here and post about how she shouldn’t have been wearing those tight tennis outfits.

  95. You are totally missing the point.

    Example for you. I was a bouncer in a popular spot. I was known for my diplomacy during incidents but would handle my business if provoked and it gave me a reputation in the area. The owners felt comfortable but nevertheless, incidents began to happen more frequently–mainly because of popularity which brought in out of town folk. My lady friend at the time began to express heated concern to the point where we were arguing. I saw it as a time to chill, hang out and see my boys all at the same time, so of course I objected.

    There was a huge brawl one night and a bartender and two other patrons ended up with 50 plus stitches each. She is a medical professional, happened to be there when all this went down and did what she could until medics arrived. The whole scene made her nauseous. I was in the middle and luckily escaped with a weak punch in the face.

    The next week, someone fired into the air 5 feet away from me. This brought my girl to tears. My girl went to the owner and told him to hire more security because things were obviously getting out of hand. He declined, so I was out of there.

    If I stayed on, don’t you think the possibility of something happening to me exponentially rises?

    Dude this is about the possibility of death, not a choice. I understand athletes want to live their lives, but come the hell on. You can’t take the money with you can you?

  96. Sportsdiva Says:

    Been crazy busy with a lot of craziness going on in the A (I’m sure Miranda can co-sign for me on that LOL), but I always sneak on and read when I can and I just haven’t had the time to comment

    BUT I had to come on because I agree with DavidMac and all I can say to that is WHOA!!!!

    And with that, I gotta get back on the plantation for a spell….LOL

    Keep up the great work and those who always inspire me are continuing to do so and thanks to all of you. Thanks for helping to keep my pressure down. 🙂

  97. Way to kill a point man. This isn’t a black/white situation, more of a gray one, and neither side is really wrong. I don’t disagree with anyone’s points on this situation. All I know, is that I personally in that situation, probably wouldn’t be out that late, but that is me and that doesn’t mean Tinsley was wrong, and not a victim. Yeah, you can be robbed/shot anywhere, this has been proven, you guys are right.

    But the last comment about hoping for a rape, thats over the top man.

  98. Wow welcome back sista. We missed you. Could have used you when Whitlock was on. Things would have been all the more interesting.

  99. Sportsdiva Says:

    Just to paint a lil perspective…

    Folks just got blasted at the mall doing their consumer duties as Americans. Folks just got killed at a Christian missionary.

    I consider myself a nocturnal. Always have been. I also like to party.
    I have been hitting the streets in every city I’ve lived in (Phoenix, Detroit, Houston and Atlanta) for a good 15-16 years.
    I have never been shot, been in a fight, had my drink drugged, had regretable relations, got knocked up, got an STD, got robbed, got raped,
    and anything like that. I have though, had a wonderful time exhibiting my self-determination.
    “Don’t trust any revolution where you can’t dance” 🙂

  100. Sportsdiva Says:

    Oh Mizzo you know I almost spit my water out when I saw he actually stopped by.

    Absolutely wonderful discourse, I want to save it for my kids to read one day. So important. I don’t know how much I could’ve added, because you all held it down. Glad to see Jemele came through too.

  101. Sportsdiva Says:

    I have had my car towed though and that ish pissed me off!!! LMAO

  102. Understood. I’m worried about the brothas that’s all. This is surely not an indictment on their will. Two of my kids are up and coming athletes and the possibilities scare me.

  103. Mizzo….this is what I was referring to in my response to Jemele’s last post. IMO, Imhotep, Nicole and even Davidmac aren’t wrong.

    You can’t justify what is inherently unfair…..but you can accept that it IS unfair and surrender to accepting that unfairness. It is what it is.

  104. Zirin stopped by as well–per my request.

  105. Sportsdiva Says:

    And I don’t have kids yet Mizzo so my world view is decidedly and understandably a bit selfish.

  106. I agree Miranda. Trust that I do. Chuck D and I had this conversation just the other day. He told me he could have had a Lambo or some other expensive vehicle parked in his driveway, but what purpose would it have served? The attention PE received was enough and he just didn’t want to give the haters a reason. Flav was overkill enough😉

    Is anyone understanding this? This is me speaking, not anyone else. I’m sick of seeing my people die over bs. That’s it. I love to get down with the best of them, but I’m past that and will pick my spots.

  107. If chuck doesn’t want a lambo fine. If you don’t want to party until 3 fine. I hang out until 3 myself, there is no reason and there is no lack of judgement in anyone doing that at all.

    You all are trying to condemn the man for being successful, yet only black men. Then you try to throw some, “well society has changed…” crap out there to justify your racist views. If a white guy on ESPN wrote the crap half of yall were saying you would be up in arms talking about, who in the hell he thinks he is to tell blacks they have to live differently from everyone else in the country.

    The fact is this, it doesn’t matter if you were a bouncer before or not, a person successful or not, man or woman, black or white, athelte or entertainer, has the right to enjoy themselves and what the privileges of their job offers. If you wouldn’t do it fine, but that in no way shape or form, means you should actively go out and say they are wrong or have poor judgement because they didn’t do what you would do.

    As for my Serena statement, that was to prove a point. What you all are saying about black atheletes and Jamal Tinsley is no different than what I posted about Serena.

  108. Maybe that last point was off topic, but I just have a sense of urgency here. Can anyone name a year where there were more incidents involving athletes?

    I’m not blaming athletes for anything. I’ve been around and hung out with these cats and the attention they receive is ridiculous. Everybody is not going to be your friend. There are going to be those having opportunistic intentions and if you are in the right place at the wrong time, peace out.

    This shit has got to stop!

  109. I’m sure this year of incidents involving athetles is no different than any other. The coverage of the same events is probably greater, but that is all. I’m pretty sure the same crap is always going on, its just been a down news year in sports, got to get something that will get viewers.

  110. Every individual makes choices and lives with those choices. David Mac is right about that. Y’all talked it out, now people will have to make choices.

  111. Name a year where so many athletes were gunned down.

  112. Here is a funny article , it was posted in 2001. The year of Chimera, Carruth, Lewis, and Mark Ingram.

    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0101/26/cf.00.html

  113. How many atheletes were gunned down this year? I can only think of 2 who were shot. Sean Taylor and Tinsley.

  114. People this is not about how we’re viewed as people. It’s pass that for me. I could care less what’s reported. The MSM is going to say what they will. I’m tired of death.

  115. What about Darrent Williams–for one?

  116. I forgot about him, he was at the beginning of the year. So ok you have 3 athletes shot for 2008. I hate to say it, but looking at all athletes in the US those aren’t bad numbers. Looking at NFL that is 2 for over the 4000 in the NFL who security tracks. That is a good number. Looking at the NBA that is 1 person for all the NBA, good numbers.

  117. Wow. Isn’t one enough?

  118. What about those college cats who got popped? The kid from Miami, the kid from Duschquene, (sp), and another kid I can’t remember.

  119. “This shit has got to stop!”

    You’re right mizzo, this shit has got to stop. The question is, how do we do that? Your solution seems to be that all the athletes should stay home, not go out, not buy anything flashy. That doesn’t seem like a very good solution to me, but YMMV.

    But what are the other solutions? Should they start using professional bodyguards? Should the police be more proactive in the club scene? Should clubs increase their security? Should the media stop harping on salary numbers? Do we need to push for tighter gun control? Do athletes need to start applying for conceal-carry permits?

    We don’t have to accept the status quo, and we don’t have to surrender to it.

  120. I’m not just talking about the deaths DMac. There were numerous incidents this year. I don’t have numbers. I’m not attempting to make back up my points with statistics. It’s all about what I see. Being rich and athletic has nothing to do with this. There are patrons present who are depressed, under the influence of drugs. Add alcohol to the mix and goodness.

    You just never know.

  121. In a perfect world no one would die except from natural cause. You know thats not happening. In proportion to the population, those are good numbers. It shows that the need for sounding alarms is bogus. I hate people dying or getting shot, but people are going to die violently.

  122. “Should the media stop harping on salary numbers?”

    Yes.

  123. I think if athletes even the lower teired ones started to let people know they are going to have bodyguards, who will shot if provoked, or police escorts, stuff like this will go down.

    They have to realize they can no longer be easily approachable, because they are worth more now, and society garbage will now try to latch on to them now and not just the MJs or LBJs.

  124. Of course media is going to highlight these numbers DMac. I know this. I never said that athletes can’t go out or live their lives to the fullest. With their talent they should be permitted to chill–it’s a stress release.

    Just please use the proper discretion.

  125. But, if the athletes become even less approachable, the backlash will become stronger in the public. And eventually, you will see that effect in the ticket sales and ratings.

  126. “Just please use the proper discretion.”

    What is proper discretion, from your point of view?

  127. I doubt it Allen, nobody stopped seeing movies when actors started to bring bodyguards with them. Nobody stopped buying albums when musicians started rolling with entourages.

    People will realize it and then accept that it is what it is, the athletes have to protect themselves.

    @mizzo

    I agree with David, what is proper discretion to you?

  128. Proper discretion to me is bouncing before the slow songs come on in clubs to calm everyone down. If you are there to pull a lovely, then why wait until the end?

    This is obviously an example and I’m certainly not one to diminish this convo by generalizing, but don’t give haters a reason.

    Like I said before, my experiences drive me in this discussion and also hypothetically putting my children in a similar situation–wondering how I would react as a father.

  129. Mizzo…its a no-win situation….the only way to possibly make it hit home is to ask…”what good is a dead martyr”?

  130. “I doubt it Allen, nobody stopped seeing movies when actors started to bring bodyguards with them. Nobody stopped buying albums when musicians started rolling with entourages.”

    I don’t know, DMac, there is much more hostility towards athletes salaries than to comparable actor or musician salaries (even though the athletes job is much tougher, imo). But still, better to alienate people than to get shot.

  131. Exactly Miranda.

  132. @mizzo
    The key fact in David’s question that I think you missed is that proper discretion is subjective. There is no right answer so while I respect your opinion that you wouldn’t have done it, to get on Tinsley as being stupid or unwise is unfair to him and those guys that were shot.

    @David
    Thats my point, its better to be safe and hated than beloved and dead.

    @general
    I find it funny most of the comments are the exact same as this dude on FoxSports. http://community.foxsports.com/blogs/Kahn_Games/2007/12/10/Out_way_too_late

  133. I never said it was their fault. I want to make that perfectly clear. I care more about their welfare and speaking from a father’s perspective.

  134. I can understand how you would feel for your sons, but grown men shouldn’t be treated like children.

  135. The term “poor judgment” is frighteningly close to the term “personal responsibility”, and we kinda know the orgins of the term personal responsibility. I don’t think Tinsley have anything to apologize for, I believe his organization should back him 100%.

    Can you imagine if Tinsley did something wrong, illegal or misbehaved in any manner, the media would be all over his ass. The brother did NOTHING wrong, and they are still F**ing with him. If Tinsley built a home, put a moat around his home, and had all his food and entertainment air dropped, would that be sound judgment? Thats what you are asking him to do.

  136. exactly Imhotep. Even though I disagree with you relating how saying poor judgement in this case is similar to saying personal responsiblity.

  137. Again, I’m speaking from personal experience as security in clubs. I could care less about the media in this instance. I’m putting all the politics aside. Do I know all? Of course not.

    It’s brotha’s girls diggin the scene. Not saying this was the case, but we can’t rule out anything here. All kinds of jealousy and envy could have come from this. If this was the first time Tinsley was involved in something, then I would be in stride with the rest of you, but it wasn’t.

  138. People are going to be envious and jealous no matter what, I do not see why he should cower away in fear, living like a recluse to make some of you feel better.

  139. Dude I’m saying that David Mac. What I’m saying is his ass shouldn’t be at the club at 3:40 flossing. Yes there are all kinds of circumstances that might have been involved. He was running late, waiting for his crew, game ended late, media interviews etc., but trust me that’s when stuff jumps off.

    Athletes can do whatever they want to do, just please brothas be careful and think about what can happen.

  140. I’ve re-read a few of these comments davidmac, and I’m not sure where anyone said it would make them feel better to see you (or anyone) cower in fear.

    This isn’t a cut and dry case with Tinsley. He did nothing wrong (well outside the club, we don’t know what went on indoors) and he got shot at. He is a victim, nobody disagreed with you.

    Do people have the right to be out all night? of course, never go to sleep for all I care. Nobody should have to worry about being shot, anywhere. That shit sucks. Nobody argues that.

    The only point of contention, and it seems to mostly be of the, ‘he has the right to do whatever he wants, but I wouldn’t’.’ That is legitimate as long as nobody judges the victim to have done anything wrong. That is their personal opinion based on their life experiences, it isn’t wrong. So the whole argument you’re having with mizzo seems to be a non issue.

  141. TheLastPoet Says:

    OK, WHy did you all pass over these words from the “other” David, and pretend he never wrote them?

    “Jemele,

    You say you’re not blaming the victim, yet the first thought that you write is “why was he out at a club that late?” Not:

    – Wow, an assault rifle being used in the streets of Indianapolis? Maybe this country needs to take a hard look at gun control.

    – With these shootings taking place at Indy clubs, maybe the police should show more force in those areas, or place undercovers in the clubs to head this sort of trouble off before it starts.

    – This isn’t the first time a Pacer has been involved in a shooting in Indy. What’s the deal in that city? Is it something about the city in particular, or the Pacers players in particular? If it’s the players, how are they contributing to the problem?

    – How can black people criticize black athletes for leaving or ignoring our communities, when they get robbed or shot up when they do stay in the community?

    – Maybe I should talk to other players in the league to see if they have similar club experiences in their cities, or when they visit Indy. Maybe I should talk to Colts players to see if they have similar experiences, or if it’s something that only happens to the Pacers.

    Instead, you jump to the laziest, most useless answer, in my opinion. Young men are going to go out. And as we’ve learned in the last year or so, staying at home isn’t a cure-all (just ask Eddy Curry).

    If you’re going to write about this, I think professionalism demands that you dig deeper. (And just to be clear, I’m not accusing you of being unprofessional. A web comment board is the perfect place for idle speculation. But if you plan on writing a column on this, then you have to get deeper.)”

    THANK YOU, “OTHER” DAVID! I, FOR ONE, HEARD YOU!!!

    I would add something, but why bother? Its very well said. I just hope our “sista” Ms Hill read it before she reports to the massa – I mean, the masses…

  142. I’m commenting no neccessarily on exactly what is being said, but the spirit of ” so and so should know better”

    I think that is a disservice to Tinsley and to anyone caught up in the wrong place at the wrong time.

  143. Poet, that was posted for Jemele to respond. I’ve stated my piece.

  144. Mizzo, I see the point you’re trying to make, but your solutions is not workable, I mean where do you draw the line. Should Tinsley not go to a club, should he leave early, then how early? Should he not drive his Benz, or His Rolls? If he drives his Charger, does he get to stay at the club longer? Should he not wear custom made clothing? Should he order his drinks from the top shelf, or drink the house stuff? Bro, all I’m saying is that chit can jump off at anytime, regardless. You might as well say he should do some self imposed house arrest until he retires from the league.

    If someone had shot at Steve Nash under similar circumstances, we would be talking about how many criminals are running lose, and that there is no respect for the law. And how a decent person like Nash cannot go out and enjoy himself. Let’s extend the same courtesy to Tinsley.

  145. Brother Imhoptep. I agree 100%. The difference is I’m not writing this for Fox. I’m saying this among my people on TSF. Huge difference. Another thing, if Tinsley had not been in incidents before, I would not be overstating the point.

    You are also correct about Nash. As I stated above, I could care less in this forum about superficial and pandering media scrutiny.

  146. Mizzo, was the the same place that the previous stuff popped off at? If it was you would have a point about going to the same place and expecting a different result, but no one is saying that. I assume he went to a new club. I wish people would tell me what type of club it was, (the party goers racial makeup), how about was there drama that caused him to leave. all these things would be helpful, in evaluating the situation but nothing is being said about it.

    I feel until we know the situation, everyone should hold off on all judgement of Tinsley.

    But quite frankly in the general scheme it doesn’t matter if he went to the same place and the other stuff. People started shooting at him.

  147. No one is judging Tinsley man! Dayum!😉

    You are correct that we should hold off theorizing until we have more information.

  148. Sweet Jones Says:

    One thing to keep in mind about Indianapolis: it is VERY EASY (or was) to get a concealed weapon permit. I’ve got family up there and ALL my cousins and their friend are walking around strapped. I mean, it like hangin out with undercover cops, holsters and all.

    Best believe when sh!t breaks out up there, the chances of the incident turning to gunplay are increased. Never know who else is carrying.

    I would also like to add that, while I under that Tinsley should ‘be careful’, I too am tired of ONLY Black folk being victims with a caveat. WE shoudn’t have been out late, WE shouldn’t have been on that side of town, WE should have ‘known better’, WE shouldn’t have been drinking/partying, WE shouldn’t be ‘flaunting’ our wealth, WE shouldn’t have talked back/resisted the police, WE shouldn’t have let our kids do such-n-such, WE shouldn’t have looked so menacing, etc.

    In my mind, it all translates to one thing: WE got what WE deserved.

    While I acknowledge the ‘realities’ of the world, there comes a point in time where one simply is just a VICTIM. An innocent VICTIM. Save the admonishments for the appropriate time. I expect that from white folk. But when Kneegrows sit around shaking their finger at their own with that ‘that’s what you get’ smirk, it makes me uneasy.

  149. I think CCW permits and the ease to obtain guns is great, it keeps the crime rate low. People are going to scared to rob someone if they know he is strapped.

  150. MIZZO:

    My Epic post when up long before it was finished – and before I came here – which would have led to some serious editing on my part. For what it’s worth, my bad…

    You’re bang on in everything you say here and it is quite similar to what I’ll be saying there. I have to say that I am glad this is getting the attention and treatment it deserves as well, as Tinsley is lucky that this stupid decision didn’t cost him or anyone in his group their lives.

    When the real post is up, I’ll let you know, because there will be some part of it I’m sure we can discuss…

    Spencer

  151. Spencer,

    What was Tinsley’s “stupid decision?”

  152. David:

    Tinsley’s stupid decision was being out until 3:40 AM… and that is my opinion. The man has had various troubles already in Indy and I am of the belief that not a lot of good happens at 3:40 in the morning. Also, being around town with a guy wanted for dealing a controlled substance falls under “stupid decision” as well, but that’s just me.

  153. @Spencer

    He lives in Indy, what is stupid about going out on the town with a group of friends and enjoying yourself. So what he had problems before, was it the same club, if it was does it really matter. Because basically, you are saying its the victim’s fault a crime happended to him, and that is just wrong.

    As for his friend, last time I heard his friend was wanted out-of-state on those charges, I doubt they were trying to kill his friend.

  154. @DavidMac

    I’d just be making the same points and arguments Mizzo has already brought up (which is a nice change from last time), so do we really need to get into this?

    I wasn’t suggesting that the violence was brought on by his out of state friend, simply that I am not one who thinks running with drug dealers is a wise life decision, for anyone, let alone someone who makes millions playing a game.

  155. @Spencer

    I never saw Mizzo post anything about Tinsley being stupid, only you. Also how do you know Tinsley knew the guy had warrents or was a drug dealer? Why don’t you wait until the facts come out before saying the man had it coming.

  156. @DavidMac

    I will indeed wait until all the fact come out, at which point I also invite you to pop by Epic Carnival and read my thoughts on the issue as a whole.

    Mizzo said he thought it wasn’t smart being out at 3:40 and that is my positino as well. Maybe he didn’t know Toon had warrants, maybe he did; I suppose we’ll find out later.

  157. Gotta co-sign on the sentiments of Sweet Jones…that’s the uneasy feeling I referred to in my response to Ms. Hill

  158. @DavidMac

    By the way, Tinsley himself acknowledge being out at that hour as a stupid mistake.

  159. Mizzo:

    Full post is up at Epic. Would love for you to have a read and hear your thoughts, as I would anyone and everyone else.

    And again Mizzo, sorry for the unresearched statement at the outset of the initial. Mea culpa…

  160. Spencer,

    can you post a link?

  161. Jemele Hill Says:

    OK, show of hands, how many of you think it’s a good idea to be out at 3:40 a.m.?

    Waiting…

    I don’t have 15 pennies to rub together, much less 15 million, but just as a grown, rational person, I know innately that I should not be out at that hour.

    And you damn right, black folks are more subceptible to trouble because — and I know we really don’t want to talk about it — we are in areas that contain other large numbers of black folks. We’re more vulnerable because a large percentage of our own sees nothing wrong with taking us out over a silly possession. That’s a fear that, quite honestly, Dirk Nowitzki or Steve Nash doesn’t have to worry about. Jeremy Shockey, a renown partier, has never had a gun pulled on him, but other black athletes have. It’s not that Shockey is any smarter or wiser. It’s that, sadly, there is a pathology of hatred, jealousy and animosity that exists strongly within our community. It is different from others.

    Jamaal Tinsley didn’t deserve to be shot at, lose his life, or anything above. But LET’S LOOK AT THE FACTS. If you have his wealth, stature and reputation, WOULD YOU BE OUT AT 3: 40 a.m.? Remember, he has a case pending from a bar fight he had a year ago. Indianapolis is a small-big city, meaning that it gave Tinsley the rep of being a badass.

    SIMPLE QUESTION: WOULD YOU BE OUT AT THAT HOUR?

    Hell NAW.

    I didn’t say Tinsley should never attend a club. I didn’t say he should stay home at all hours. But he clearly has enemies, otherwise he wouldn’t find it neccesary to fight at a bar.

    This isn’t a demonization of black athletes, or even Tinsley. If the dudes with the assault rifle had a better aim, Jamaal Tinsely would be dead. That’s real.

    I feel like a lot of you on here are playing stupid and acting as if you would make a similar decision in Tinsley’s position when common sense dictates you wouldn’t. I wouldn’t. You wouldn’t. So, don’t get overly sensitive acting as if you would.

    YES, Tinsley has the right to be out at whatever time. But as GROWN FOLKS learn, just because you have the right, doesn’t mean you always exercise it. Part of BEING GROWN is exercising restraint. It’s knowing your limitations. There’s a reason that, as you get older, you don’t drink like you did when you’re 21. It’s not that you can’t, but hangovers and headaches have taught you that you shouldn’t. And you can call it whatever you want, but given the climate of today, there is no way that as a professional athlete — amend that: as a BLACK professional athlete — I would be caught out there like that. As black people, we live with different fears and different casualties. That’s not just for the Tinsleys of the world, but all of us. A black bus driver wouldn’t go certain places. So why are we acting irrational, as if someone like Tinsley has carte blanche?

    We ain’t being real.

  162. Sweet Jones Says:

    No, Madame Hill, it is YOU who “ain’t being real”.

    I, like I’d be willing to bet 95% of the other folk on this board, have ZERO fear of being “in areas that contain other large numbers of black folks.” Again , I am not afraid, nor every will BE afraid of my own people. Ever. Period.

    It is CRIMINALS that I fear. There is a huge difference and, no matter how you try to qualify it, your postings seem to conflate the two. Stop writing as if the Black Partygoing experience is the equivalent of the Warriors getting back to Coney Island. It ain’t like that AND YOU KNOW IT.

    And for the record, YES, there are plenty occasions when I’m out at that hour. Hell, I grew up in STL where the clubs in East St Louis don’t even start popping until 2AM (after the st louis clubs close), and don’t let out until 5:30. Took my wife there a few weeks ago. And then we hit the boat for some gambling. Felt safe the entire time. Just like when I’m here in the Chi going to the 50 (old school) and hitting up ‘Jewtown’ afterwards. No problem at all for us as ‘grown folk’.

    Being out at 3:40 aint the problem. The only problem most Black folk have at that time of night is not getting a seat at (insert name of late night, after-the-club food spot in your town).

    Being shot at with an AK IS the problem.

  163. @Sweet Jones

    Couldn’t have said it better myself.

  164. Man, those comments from Jemele are just depressing. You know, I grew up right outside of Indianapolis, and I went home for Thanksgiving. I went out clubbing in Indy with my wife and sisters (thanks ma for watching the kids!), and we shut the club down, then went out and had breakfast. I didn’t realize that I was taking my life in my hands. (Also, I can’t be sure, cause I wasn’t checking my watch, but I’m pretty confident that at 3:40 am I was having fun.)

    But this discussion has sort of confirmed an old truth, a truth that’s been around at least as long as black people have been in this country:

    Black people are never innocent.

    When something goes wrong, the best we can hope for is “not guilty,” or “he’s not primarily responsible, even if he did put himself in a bad situation.” But never innocent. We don’t hear “Sean Taylor died protecting his family.” We hear “Sean Taylor’s checkered past caught up with him.”

    We don’t hear “Sean Bell was murdered by violent, racist police.” We hear “What was Sean Bell doing at that shady niteclub to begin with? And doesn’t he have a police record?”

    We don’t hear “We have to help save our fellow Americans from Hurricane Katrina.” We hear “Why didn’t they leave before the hurricane hit?”

    We don’t hear “Patrick Dorismond was murdered by overaggressive police.” We hear “Patrick Dorismond was no altar boy.”

    In the future we’ll here “Obama shoulda never run for president. He shoulda known he was gonna get shot.”

    But if you protest against that kind of thinking, you’re “not being real.” You’re “not showing proper discretion.”

  165. Jemele Hill Says:

    I’m not afraid of my own people. Never have been. Never will be. But the unfortunate part is, the realities of black-on-black crime makes it so black athletes face different factors and dangers when going out. Period. No. 1 cause of death for black men aged 18-24 is homocide. No. 2 cause of death for black women is homocide. For both genders, 90 percent of the perpetrators will be someone from their own race. As a black comedian once said, black folks don’t need to bungee jump. Surviving another day is all the excitement we need.

    You’d have to be some kind of fool to say, it’s a smart thing for Jamaal Tinsley to be out at that time with the baggage he has (wealth, reputation, expensive cars, brother with a gun — albeit legally). Those combination of factors are a Molotov cocktail.

    My general point is, as free adults, we can do whatever we want. The question is: SHOULD WE? The answer is, NO. What separates us from the animals is our ability to rationalize. There are a lot of things I know I can do, but I practice restraint because I’m an adult with responsibilities to someone other than myself. Tinsley is someone’s son, teammate and friend. He carries those responsibilities, too.

    As someone on this board said, as I firmly believe, keep doing what you doing and you’ll keep getting what you been getting. Jamaal Tinsley keeps going to the clubs, keeps making stupid mistakes, and the end result continues to be the same — the incident with Marquis Daniels, the gunplay involving Stephen Jackson and now, his car being shot up.

    Again, he did not deserve to be killed or put in harm’s way. But fact is, there were three or four different decisions there to be made that would have prevented this entire episode. We’re not talking about the things he couldn’t control, but things he could.

    This, of course, doesn’t apply to all athletes. But this does apply to the one who seems to have a penchant for running into these situations. Again, keep doing what you doing, you’ll keep getting what you getting. And while I am glad you and your wife had a good time, my guess is you don’t have the additional baggage of your multi-million salary being in the newspaper, or your name being attached to two previous incidents where a gunplay and a fight occurred. You and wifey being out at 3:40 is a whole different deal than Jamaal Tinsley. Apples and oranges.

  166. Jemele I feel your arguement 100%

    I think of it as this. When I was growing up you would always hear about people getting jumped and having their jackets or Jordans snatched from them. Today it’s the same thing. In some places, showing off all your money like that is just asking someone to try something. And I bet there is always one who is willing to. Especially if they have friends around willing to back them up.

    It’s all about being safe. You can have fun and still be safe at the same time.

  167. Jemele, I take it if you are a real journalist, you would know the myth of black-on-black crime. Stop spouting that media fabrication. Of course blacks get killed mostly by blacks, all races get killed mostly by people of their own race. So unless you are going to start talking about the epidemic of white-on-white, hispanic-on-hispanic, and asian-on-asian crime cut the crap. You being intellectually dishonest by trying to push that as justification for your belief that Tinsley brought it on himself.

    Ok, age 15 – 34 the highest rate of death for a black man is homocide. So what, all black men are supposed to live in a box. BS. As for your women stats, you are wrong. only in ages 1-4 and 15-24 are homocide the second leading cause of death for black women, and even then the number is extremely low. As for all women, homocide doesn’t even crack the top 10 causes of death. Don’t believe me look it up, http://webappa.cdc.gov/cgi-bin/broker.exe.

    As for being a fool to say he is wrong to be out enjoying himself, when is it the last time I head you call Nick Cannon a fool, what about Jaime Fox, nah I haven’t heard anything from you their either. Let me see, what about Chris Brown, T-Pain, Young Jeezy, 50 Cent, the Game, and etc.. Other young black men who hang out until the sun rises. Oh no warning for them, I’d bet money that if anything happend to them most people would say who was shooting at them and why. But a young black athlete can get no such love? BS.

    Jemele you are full of garbage. Jamaal has every right to go out and enjoy himself just like all people with wealth and status do, people of all colors. He is within reason to do it and it is acceptable, he doesn’t have to live his life as a dog to appease anyone like you. Instead of pointing you pen at him how about point at the people who attacked him, how about point it at the people who were shooting up the streets of Indy at 3:45 am and who could have killed a great deal on innocent people. But I forgot if anyone would have gotten hurt, according to Jemele, that would have been on Jamaal because he could have prevented a bunch of thugs trying to gun him down with assault rifles.

  168. @DavidMac:

    Here’s the link, as per your request

    http://www.epiccarnival.com/2007/12/from-great-white-north-enough-is-enough.html

    @Everyone Opposing Jemele’s Comments:

    Hypothetical – your child has been involved in two violent confrontations at other kids houses. Do you think it’s a good idea to send them to a third kids house, knowing they’ve been in those other incidents?

    If your answer isn’t no, stop lying to yourself. Now apply that to Jamaal Tinsley, factor in his millions of dollars, reputation and – as much as everyone hates to acknowledge it, besides Jemele – the fact that he is black and understand that this was a stupid decision…

    TINSLEY SAID SO HIMSELF. Sure it was after the fact, but even he is wondering what the hell he was doing out at that time…

    Like it or not, you don’t hear of this type of shit happening to nearly as many white athletes as you do black athletes. I have no idea why and pose that question in my piece… Anyone got any answers?

    More importantly, why don’t we all stop arguing about this shit here and find a way to try and help stop it from continuing to happen… Wouldn’t that be a whole lot more productive?

  169. DavidMac:

    Proofread sir. Your arguments are less than compelling when they are grammatically incorrect. I’d let one slip, as well all type fast and fat-finger things from time to time, but two plus doesn’t work.

    Furthermore, all those people you mention – Nick Cannon, Foxx, everyone – they all need the same cautioning, as they are young, rich and famous, which increases their likelihood of being targets. No one is saying don’t go out and enjoy yourself; we’re saying be smart about it, know your situation and your surroundings…

    You hastened me and others to wait for the full story to come out. What happens if it turns out Tinsley started some shit that led to this happening? Or it was from a previous incident, of which there are many? Then what? Then it’s okay to say Jamaal Tinsley shouldn’t have been out at that hour and should have been smarter…

  170. @Spencer

    Was Jamaal Tinsley shot at in a club or in the streets? What you are suggesting is that Tinsley no longer drive the streets of Indy. That makes perfect sense. Sit down and STFU.

    Tinsley said what he said because thats what his bosses wanted to hear from him. He did it to protect the image of the franchise. I bet if you ask him one on one was he at fault for someone following him to a hotel and shooting at him he would tell you the same answer anyone else would. Hell no.

    As for what if Tinsley was talking garbage, so what if he did? Are you saying someone has a right to shoot you for talking noise?

    I see now, I think I have your train of thought now, either way it is the victim’s fault. He got what was coming to him, the nerve driving around in his fancy car, with that damn jewelery on. He should have known what was going to happen.

  171. DavidMac:

    The STFU is a classy touch…

    Anyway, you’re 100% right that Tinsley was towing the company line in his comments and I too do not think he is at fault for someone following him and shooting at him, AS I’VE SAID A MILLION TIMES OVER.

    It’s about putting yourself in a dangerous situation to begin with. Again, no one has the right to shoot you for talking noise, but understand that being who he is with the history he has, talking noise is probably not a smart decision…

    Seriously, think about my hypothetical and tell me your honest answer. Or better yet, stop wanting to pick apart those with differing views than yourself and offer some solutions and answers to why this shit keeps happening! When it keeps happening to athletes, and primarily black athletes, you cannot continue to contend that it is absolute random situations…

  172. @Spencer

    Yeah driving down the street in a Rolls-royce, yeah he had it coming to him. What is a thug to do? He was taunting them to shot up his car, serves him right, doesn’t he know about black-on-black crime, he should be in bed with his woman like Sean T…

  173. I don’t think we’re going to be able to bridge the gap between those of us who think we should be focusing on the fact that a bunch of thugs were using assault rifles on the streets of Indy to try to kill people, and those who think we should be focusing on the fact that an NBA player with a bad reputation was out at four in the morning.

  174. Spencer, your hypothetical makes no sense. As a child, I got into “violent confrontations” (aka “fights”) with my friends all the time, and would be playing with them like nothing happened an hour later.

    Plus, Tinsley is not a child, he’s a grown man. Stop trying to infantilize him.

  175. As far as solutions go, I’ve posted some already: increasing police presence in and around nightclubs, athletes hiring professional security, athletes applying for conceal-carry permits, clubs increasing their security, the country passing stricter gun control laws, etc. But some people here seem to think the solution is as simple as telling athletes to stay home at night.

  176. @David

    Basically they are saying that a woman who was raped , should wear less revealing clothes and shouldn’t have been out anyway.

  177. David:

    I have said and will continue to say that the actions that took place were heinous, uncalled for and in no way did Tinsley deserve to have some thugs shooting at him and his group with assault rifles.

    That being said – these thugs were not out shooting at random people; they were shooting at the NBA player with the bad reputation and therefore, his reputation is relevant. I’m not saying it makes what happened to him right, but it is part of the conversation.

    I believe it was a situation that was wholly avoidable; not that Jamaal Tinsley cannot go out, drive fancy cars or deserved any of this. I feel athletes are targets and therefore need to consider everything when they do decide to go out, especially in the wake of the totally random acts of violence against their peers like Antoine Walker, Eddy Curry and Philip Buchanon and even more so two weeks removed from Sean Taylor’s death.

    That you make reference to his death in the way you do DavidMac saddens me, because it was senseless and tragic and at no point did I or anyone say otherwise…

  178. Spencer,

    I don’t think you believe Tinsley got what he deserved. But I do think you believe his actions were the most important factor in the incident. I think that because the only thing you’ve talked about here is what Tinsley should have done differently. Even after we’ve posted multiple solutions to preventing these type of incidents, you still keep coming back to what Tinsley did wrong. Is that your only solution? That Tinsley should be more careful?

  179. TheLastPoet Says:

    Kyte

    Your so-called “hypothetical” is paternalistic, and thus insulting to every ADULT who “puts” him or herself in that “situation,” as you and Ms Hill are so fond of calling it. The choices we make for our children, that’s one thing. The choices we make for ourselves? Sometimes, quite another. Find a new “hypothetical,” sir, and maybe we can talk.

    Also, you and Ms Hill like to have your cake and eat it, too. You say, “No one deserves to be shot at,” etc. Then from the other side of your mouth comes, “Mr Tinsley should have checked his Rolex, noted the lateness of the hour, and made a hasty retreat!”

    Are you trying to say that Mr Tinsley was both victim and perp in this case? Although that’s not an impossibility, it’s probably not the best way to argue, given the circumstances (or perhaps I should say that, as of yet, neither you nor Ms Hill have presented a convincing argument in this regard).

    Indeed, what are the facts here: Mr Tinsley was out partying with friends (check that: FRIENDS – not drug dealers, not thugs, or any other words you can think of as euphemisms for “niggers”); another group became jealous of his wealth and told him so; he left the scene, without incident, and was headed for home; he noticed he was being followed; instead of going home, he pulled into a public place, presumably to AVOID an altercation and to alert the proper authorities (note however, that this latter assertion is a presumption, and Mr Abbott over at ESPN’s Truehoop may be right to point out that Mr Tinsley could have done this in the car via cell phone); someone shot at him using a muhfuckin WMD; and, finally, sportswriters, bloggers, and various other pundits deliver the verdict that Mr Tinsley was somehow culpable in all this. Not for what he’d done, but rather for who he is: young, Black, rich, flamboyant, a celebrity, etc.

    Additionally, he’s wrong because of his past indiscretions.

    Say what?

    Did I miss the entry where Mr Tinsley was convicted of a felony? The case of the barfight is still pending, right? And that happened at a white bar anyway, right? Totally different set of circumstances. Have you learned nothing from the death of Sean Taylor? Blaming the victim is played out, holmes.

    Oh, and of course he was wrong for hanging out with a buddy who allegedly sold drugs at some time or another in some other state. Yeah, good one. Did homie get shot at because he was with an alleged drug dealer? No? You mean the shooters didn’t even have a clue that Tinsley’s homie sold weed or rocks? No? Then chill with that red herring, please.

    But mostly he was wrong for being out late at night. Another gem, that one. Last I checked, there are 24 hours in the day. When a man sleeps or when he’s awake is entirely his business. As long as he’s obeying the law, and taking care of his responsibilities both professional and personal, then it should forever stay that way. I live in Harlem, I’ve got a wife and kid, and an extended family that’s always into something from which they always need me to bail them out. Shid, sometimes its 3 AM before I can even think straight, and by 3:40 I’m out walking thru the hood just trying to clear my head. Am I wrong? Do I no longer meet your approval? Am I a thug who should know better because I got a lil paper? Does it make a difference that I’m not a “celebrity,” but just an average cat? No, that makes no difference because the cats who shot at Tinsley didn’t do so because he’s “famous” (I would argue, in fact, that Tinsley is no more famous that Chris Henry or Tank Johnson, and that all these brothers are “famous” for the wrong reasons), rather they shot at him because he was rich. Anybody who has a lil paper can get they wig split – yeah, I’m slippin into some ol school ebonics, so what? Some of yall need to get yo facts straight, that’s all.

    I’ma do ya like Nell Carter, “Give Me A Break.”

    Sportsdiva said it best, “Don’t trust any revolution where ya can’t dance.”

    Yall go ‘head and miss me with that stay at home bull shit.

    I’ma do ya this time like GoodieMOb, “If you scared, say you scared,” and just leave it at that.

  180. David:

    I don’t think Tinsley’s being out were the most important factor in the incident. I think him being Jamaal Tinsley , a somewhat well-known, rich basketball player was what led to this potentially deadly incident.

    I speak of Tinsley not being out at that time because I think it is a viable solution to situations like this, though I don’t think it is the only one. I like Alonzo Mourning’s suggestion of using a credit card instead of carrying a roll of hundreds and think that to some extent, shit like this is wholly unavoidable because these individuals who attacked Tinsley and his group might be the type who would attack damn near anyone.

    I live in Canada and I think one of the reasons we have a lot less gun violence is because getting a gun and carrying a gun isn’t as easy a process as it is in the US. That is a solution.

    I think security at establishments always needs to be at it’s fullest and ready to defuse situations that might arise.

    I think if you’re frequented by celebrities, athletes and other media types, you need to have a private entrance and exit where they can slip out without incident should they be so inclined.

    And yes, I think Jamaal Tinsley needs to do a little thinking about where and when and how he is stepping out on the town.

    POET:

    Yes, my hypothetical is paternalistic and maybe it does evoke different reactions, so I offer this:

    You’re Jamaal Tinsley and have been involved in two incidents in Indy that stemmed from you being a rich, black athlete. Both incidents resulted in violence, one of which you will be appearing in court for on January 14th. As such, do you think the best way for you to unwind at the end of the day is by rolling to the club in three cars with your friends – not thugs, not gangsters – until 3:40 AM?

    If your answer is YES, than you and I are different people, because if I don’t change my patterns of behaviour after altercation #1, I sure as hell do seeing as I have to appear in court later in the year…

    I can’t speak for Ms. Hill – though I would love to speak with her about this and sundry other topics – but AGAIN: I don’t think Jamaal Tinsley was at all responsible for this happening and acknowledge beyond any shadow of a doubt that he is a victim here. He is not culpable for the actions of his attackers.

    And still – IT IS MY OPINION that this event could have been avoided, by any number of means, including but not limited to Jamaal Tinsley not being out on the town at 3:40 AM. Forgive me for having a differing opinion than the one you have on this topic…

    Tinsley is not wrong for having past incidents, but not putting himself in a position to avoid future further incidents is playing with fire. It’s Russian Roulette… he is truly lucky to be alive and while his comments Monday might have been in part towing the company line, I’m sure some of it is true regret from a man who is very thankful to be breathing and uninjured.

    In regards to the out of state friend who sells drugs – again, it had nothing to do with this incident, I just personally don’t advocate hanging out with people who have outstanding warrants and sell drugs. Not my thing, don’t understand how it is anyone’s…

    Yes, your not being a celebrity makes for a different set of circumstances during your 3AM walks through the hood. While I agree with you that anyone with a little paper can get got, the ones with A LOT of paper are much bigger targets and the ones with A LOT OF PAPER WHO SHOW THAT OFF are the biggest targets of all.

    You’re right that they targeted Tinsley because he’s rich. D’you know how they knew he was rich? BECAUSE HE’S JAMAAL TINSLEY OF THE INDIANA PACERS, the guy who has most likely been on the cover of the sports page a couple dozen times in his stay in Indiana and rolled up to the club in the Benz, the Charger and The Rolls.

    I’m not scared, I’m realistic. I know what situations are dangerous for me and I avoid them… if that’s scared to you, so be it.

    (Sorry this is so long everyone…)

  181. Ok Poet do you think maybe I can try to make an argument for Jamaal Tinsley doing a few things differently?

    I am in no way staying “stay at home.” But here’s what I am saying: If at the point you walk in, and you notice everyone start to mean-mug you OR you don’t feel comfortable in a certain spot, leave. Don’t try and tough it out because that’s the only place you want to go. And herew’s another thing: Don’t make a show out of what you have around people that don’t have anything. It’s just more trouble than it’s worth.

    The shooting is what the shooting is. Thankfully no one got hurt seriously. But Poet with freedom comes responsibility. And when he pulled into a hotel and didn’t call the cops to let them know what was going on…. he was irresponsible. Because he might have hurt more people than himself. Imagine what would be said if the guys following him sprayed bullets all over the place and actually killed someone?

    Look Poet…. everyone knows where the bad spots in a town are, where you try not to go. But hey I can’t change the way you think. Just respect that I think differently than you.

  182. @Okori

    From reports he did leave when he felt the environment getting rough. He did what a responsible person would do, just like Darrent Williams. They followed him out the party and tried to attack him.

    Also I don’t understand how he was irresponsible when he went to a hotel, a public place where he thought an attack wouldn’t occur, to call the police. I mean maybe I’m missing something, but now that I think of it how was a irresponsible for trying to contact the authorities in a safe place?

    Then you you top the cake by implying that he would in some way be responsible if others were shot because he went to the hotel to call police. My God, lets just forget completely about the armed gunmen.

    Why don’t you guys talk about them.

    @Kyte

    As for your Canadian gun laws, there is collected evidence that areas that have a high percentage of civilian gun ownership have lower crime rates. Its the Wild West effect, criminals are less likely to committ crimes if they know there is going to be armed resistance.

  183. DavidMac he was slightly irresponsible, and only slightly, because he didnt try and call the cops from his cars and instead rushed into an open place.

    Ok…. Armed Gunmen are following you. Are you going to a: call the cops from the safety of the car or b: pull into a hotel, rush in the front door, tell the guy behind the desk what happened? I pick a. Not B. And i talked about the armed gunmen.

  184. David said it best.

    If everyone on here and in mainstream media started talking about increased police patrols, better club security, gun control and private security immediately after the shooting, I don’t think there would have been as big a problem with people then saying Tinsley might want to avoid large displays of wealth and staying out until the wee hours of the morning.

    However, the order of the conversation on this site was reversed, and in the mainstream media, the point of views raised by both Davids got nary a mention. When that happens, it sounds a lot like blaming the victim.

    And I think David Mac had a good point about the homicide rates for all races.

  185. I might try to get to a public place first. I would probably figure the gunmen would leave me alone in a public place.

  186. Every person has a different decision they would make I think.

  187. @Okori

    If everyone has a different decision they would make, why would you classify him as irresponsible? Now if he kept on driving home and called the cops from the car and the shooting still occured what would you say?

    Me if I had a crew of people with me I would stop at the hotel. Why? My thinking would be they could shoot at me on the street, they might fall back if I go to a public place with a lot of light, with a lot of cameras, and where people can see them. It would stop the attack and give me time to call the cops. Thats just me though.

    Seeing that they shot at the man at the hotel, do you think they wouldn’t have shot at him if he was still in his car?

  188. i don’t know.

  189. that’s the trouble. Neither does Jamaal. This is the fallacy of the predetermined outcome.

  190. @Okori
    No one knew what was going to happen, so how can you say its irresponsible of him to pull over into a hotel, thinking this would cause the followers to back off, and allow them to call the police?

    I mean you are criticizing him for doing what a great deal of people are trained to do when in trouble, go to a populated well lit area. Whats bad about that?

    As for whether the guy would have shot him if they kept on driving, looking at the fact that these people shot them when they pulled over to the hotel, there is no doubt in my mind they would have driven by and shot them too. If that would have happend, would you be in here posting that he should have pulled over somewhere?

  191. Just got my computer from the shop and have missed this discussion. Sadly, I have to side with DavidMac on this one.

    First, this situation fully illustrates the nature of the sports media. While Jamal will probably learn that hanging out as he does puts him in bad situations, the fact that the cottage industry of talking heads whose livelyhood depends on publically judging others has used this to yet again justify their moralizing and thus their jobs, absolutely proves exactly how worthless and parasitic they really are.

    I find it amazing in it’s brazeness how people who can’t possibly come close to comprehending what it is like to live life as a professional athlete feel justified to judge them in situations when they are engaging in law abiding endeavors.

    Simply amazing, simply pathetic.

  192. Nicole 10/20 Says:

    Fellas,

    When am I ever going to read an article entitled “America needs to stop hatin’ ” Jemele has chastized the athelete, now she needs to do the same with the public. I remember a time, not long ago, when it seemed like a rapper was getting shot every week. Then Biggie and Pac were killed and that seemed to have calmed things down. Maybe this thing has to run it ‘s course.

    Maybe Jemele can’t write that column because she is part of an industry that has made it easier to hate the black athlete. The MSM has made it harder for people to sympathize with the athlete. The athlete has helped with that image, but the msm has a part to play also.

    When I was growing up there were always people who were flashy and drove fancy cars and smelled of money. They were called pimps and drug dealers. The difference is that the public was scared of these people. The athlete is a sitting duck

    Someone wrote about the homocide statistics regarding blacks. I just want to know do we care about the regular people who are getting killed or just the athlete??? Maybe if we stopped the violence altogether it would trickle down to the athlete. Do we really even care about the athlete, or are we just tired of hearing about about them doing stupid things???

    Maybe he went to the hotel because he knew he had a history and he felt that if he had non-partial witnesses maybe people would not blame him. Or maybe he just panicked. He is human. We do panick sometimes

    There is a reason all of this stuff is happening. I somehow do not think that staying at home is going to cure the underlying issues.

  193. TheLastPoet Says:

    Mr Kyte

    Yes your opinion is different than mine, I can forgive you (per your request!), but first a few clarifications…

    You posed an alternate hypothetical in which your ultimate query is to determine whether its cool for Tinsley to chill at 3:40 AM in the club with his friends, given that he’s got a court case pending. My answer is yes. The court case hasn’t anything to do with chillin at a club. You act like he went to the same club where he got in trouble, but he didn’t. If that’s how Tinsley likes to unwind, then what’s the problem? It’s not like he didn’t learn from past mistakes because this time he went to a different club with plenty of friends, perhaps under the assumption that the greater numbers would insulate him from the howling of haters. And I’ve already noted that the time of day or night is completely irrelevant. The earth does not stop spinning just because you play it safe by going to bed at 9 PM. Life goes on whether you’re awake to see it or not. Some people, due to their hectic lives – and this would certainly include pro athletes – don’t even get any down time until that time of morning. You and yours really need to put the clock down and slowly back away from that argument.

    Next you suggest that Tinsley is wrong for “not putting himself in the position” to avoid these kinds of situations. You liken his decision making to a game of “Russian Roulette.” Well I think I can speak for a number of young Blacks when i say that we don’t always put ourselves in “positions” but rather, sometimes, positions are put upon us. How does one account for such a thing, you ask? The answer: birth. More specifically, by being born Black and poor in America. In fact, let’s rename the “position” in which we find ourselves upon being born Black and poor in America, and the subsequent “decisions” we are often forced to make, the New Black Russian Roulette.

    Next you offer your personal feelings about “drug dealers.” Its funny because nearly every time that term “drug dealer” is invoked, as it relateds to Black people, folk get in their heads an image of Tony Montana, Nino Brown, or more recently, Frank Lucas. In other words, some big time Black gangster who runs the whole block, loves to kill, and would sell his momma into slavery if it meant mo money for himself and his “posse.” The reality is that the biggest drug dealers in Black communities throughout the country, historically, have been the Italian Mafia in collusion with the US government. Blacks have participated, and a few have done “well,” but for the most part our participation is on a much smaller scale, and focused on issues of survival – get that? SURVIVAL, not abject criminality, not moral paucity, nor the desire to see another human being suffer the ills of drug addiction. Very few people get off on seeing others suffer and/or contributing to it. Those who do enjoy that sort of thing can be found across all races, colors and creeds, but you would never know that by watching the nightly news…

    And so a simple answer to your patronizing query about how could anyone hang out with those kinds of people, well, if they’re the latter kind of people I’ve described above, and moreover if they’re members of your family, well then, I guess you manage… But you’re right, you’ll probably never understand that. To make it plain for you, Kyte, don’t assume that just because a Black man has been accused of drug trafficking, that you KNOW him to be some sort of crime lord scum of the earth.

    John Gotti was a crime lord scum of the earth, but nevertheless, to this day, people do not vilify him.

    No reason to go any further with this. We can agree to disagree.

    Besides, I still say most journalists, bloggers, and pundits are missing the point that David so eloquently stated a while ago: athletes are being targeted and attacked, not because they’re famous, but rather because they’re rich, and vulnerable; Indianapolis is place that has seen more than its fair share of such violence (shouldn’t someone ask why?); young people, of all colors and creeds, but with no training and no direction are carrying WMD’s on the streets of our cities, and not hesitating to fire them at people; and so we are ALL in danger whether we’re clubbing, driving our cars, shopping at the mall, or at home sleeping next to our loved ones.

    Who do they have to killl before you “victim blamers” let go of the blame game and start dealing with these REAL issues?

  194. Admittedly this is not my strong suit.

    So I will just step out.

  195. POET:

    I’m going to stray from the original Jamaal Tinsley topic and address a couple of the other issues you mentioned.

    I didn’t make any assumption about knowing the alleged drug dealer Tinsely was traveling with; my statement was that me, personally, I choose not to associate with drug dealers. I think drugs are one of the greatest ills of our society and world and see no good that comes from it. Your argument about the black people who do it to survive is bullshit to me because you could just as easily go and survive and provide for your family by working any of a number of McJobs that exist in society without peddling corrosion and death.

    The time of day isn’t irrelevant and to use your words to me about KNOWING Tinsley’s friend to be some sort of crime lord (which I don’t for the record) don’t think you KNOW me because I don’t see any reason to be rolling around town at 3:40 AM. You admonish me and then do the exact same…

    You’re bang on that athletes are being targeted for being rich and vulnerable. My argument is that KNOWING THAT why would an athlete, in this instance Jamaal Tinsley, not want to do everything in his or her power to minimize their risk? I think being out at 3:40 in the morning in your Benz and Rolls in a city you’ve already had beef in increases your likelihood of being targeted and this incident confirms that to me.

    Not that this is the only way these incidents happen, as we’ve all learned from the Sean Taylor tragedy among others or that Tinsley is to blame for what happened in any way, it’s just about minimizing potential damage and risk to me.

  196. TheLastPoet Says:

    Kyte

    I gave you a shot, holmes. But I don’t make a habit of banging my head into brick walls, ie, if you refuse to listen then i refuse to talk (to you).

    I tried to make sense of your last post and couldn’t. You’ve taken my words and jumbled them to fit some ill-conceived purpose.

    McJobs? Corrosion and death? WTF is all that? Clearly you haven’t understood anything I’ve said.

    And I don’t pretend to know you, sir. Based on this exchange, I have no desire to do so. But it’s cool. When I entered into this dialogue with you, I had very low expectations.

    Have your cake. We’re done here.

  197. Nobody has asked yet what the Pacers’ 45-year old equipment manager was doing out at that time of night, the equipment manager who is Bird’s personal friend. I wonder if the team will seek an apology from him?

  198. And, I personally know several ex-drug dealers and most of them are just regular cats who got caught up doing something stupid for a while and switched up when they realized it wasn’t smart. They are not the scum of the Earth. They are just regular people who rationalize certain behavior based on the their past experiences. Kind of like most humans.

  199. […] It seemed like Jemele Hill and I were battling some of the readers of our blog because I spoke of my experiences as a bouncer. Having guns to my […]

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