Two Cents (or less) On Patriot-gate

I know I am late to this party, but when dwil first wrote about the media attention given to the Belichick cheating issue last week, I wasn’t sure it was going to have significant legs. It just didn’t seem to me like it could really occupy the attention of the entire sports media for any length of time. Shows what I know.

I don’t how much longer this is going to last, now that the league has handed down its ruling and after the Pats absolutely smoked the Chargers without, one presumes, any unfair technological advantages, but I am amazed at the number of commentators who believe that this really calls into question the Patriots’ success over the years, especially given the extremely widespread nature of attempted sign-stealing in big-time athletics, including the NFL.

Bill Simmons’ chat with Aaron Shatz of the Football Outsiders last week linked to a 2002 article by Rick Reilly, in which Broncos’ coach Mike Shanahan casually acknowledges stealing signals. And, John Branch’s Giants’ blog at the New York Times website last week references a passage in Ernie Accorsi’s new book about how NFL teams used to hire lip-readers to steal signals. This is only the tip of the iceberg, of course. I have no problem with the league making rules like the one the Patriots broke, and I suspect one reason Goodell was particularly annoyed was that the Pats had already been warned about this type of behavior. But, the naivete and moralism on display here strikes me as especially juvenile (and, by the way, I dislike the Patriots and have only residual affection for the Giants’ former defensive coordinator).

Leaving aside sign-stealing in the NFL, just in the past week we’ve seen a $100 million dollar fine levied against a Formula One team for having improper access to car designs, reports of improper filming of a meeting of the Danish women’s soccer prior to a match against China, not to mention a good bit of discussion of the sign-stealing that preceded the most dramatic homerun in baseball history, Bobby Thompson’s 1951 “shot heard ’round the world.”

Does that justify rule-breaking? No. But, can we bring some semblance of perspective to the issue.

One of the points of debate has been about the severity of the penalty. One point of sympathy I have with those who say the penalty was too light is that it does strike me as completely incongruous that an assistant coach taking HGH for medical reasons (Wade Wilson) would be suspended for roughly a third of the season, which in addition to making no sense in competitive terms, will cost him a significant portion of his salary, more than the 10% of his salary that Belichick will pay in fines to the league. And, of course, Belichick won’t miss any games. I chalk this up, in significant measure, to the incoherent, arbitrary and crazed approach to drug use in this country, of which Goodell’s attitude and the league’s policies are just another manifestation.

On the other hand, I agree with Tony Kornheiser who, last night, described himself as in the minority in saying that a first round pick is a significant penalty. I realize that this is only one of two Pats’ first round picks, but first round picks are gold in the NFL and great players have been traded for less (see Randy Moss). On Jim Rome’s TV show last week, Rick Telander, in the midst of condemning the penalty as insufficient, argued that since Tom Brady was a sixth round pick, first round picks didn’t mean anything.

In all of the discussion of the penalty, I have not seen a single discussion or graphic of who the Patriots have actually used their picks on the past few years, which would seem to be helpful context for evaluating the significance of the penalty. In fact, among the Pats’ first round picks since 2001 have been their new featured running back, Lawrence Maroney (2006), starters Logan Mankins (2005), Ben Watson (2004) and Ty Warren (2003), and 2001 pick Richard Seymour (a higher pick, of course, than the Patriots will lose this year), perhaps their best defensive player. The fact that Tom Brady was not a first round pick is just a random and pointless “argument” against the severity of the sanction.

The Pats’ first round picks in the Belichick era comprise a considerable pool of talent and high draft picks are the lifeblood of any competent franchise. Losing one first round pick is not the end of the world. But, it’s a significant penalty.

In any event, as I mentioned a few weeks ago  (see item #2), national discussions of cheating always remind of me of Dave Callahan’s work, especially in his book, The Cheating Culture. In a society predicated on the idea that one needs to do whatever it takes to get ahead, and in which thinking about the common good is often vilifed as socialism, reverse discrimination, or whatever other epithet seems convenient, cheating by elite competitors (it happens in business all the time) should be understood to come from some place. Americans are not, of course, alone in their cheating. But, we are unique, it seems, in our incomprehension of how such things could possibly happen each and every time a new scandal emerges.

By the way, and lost in Patriot-gate, and the apparently bad blood between the Chargers and the Patriots, when might the questions begin about whether Norv Turner, he of the 58-82 lifetime coaching record (prior to this season), really was the best candidate for the Chargers’ head coaching job? It’s early, and the Chargers have played two of the best defenses in the NFL, but…

124 Responses to “Two Cents (or less) On Patriot-gate”

  1. I got a little annoyed by Goodell’s argument Sunday night. He was asked to explain the disparity between Belicheks penalty and those handed down to players. His response was the typical political sidestep: (1) He defended his decision by stating how he has listened to a number of opinions and “appreciates” their input. I call this “the decider” defense: my decision is a valid one because I am the one who makes decisions, and I make them well. (2) He then went on to describe how he would apply the same penalty to any other coach in the league. This was a typical non-sequitor. Q: Why the disparity between penalties between players and coaches? A: Well, I hold all coaches to the same standard.

    These types of political sidesteps are par for the course in deflecting questions. However, because more people watch Al Michaels interview the NFL commissioner than Wolf Blitzer interview Dick Cheney, sports “reporting” has some dangerous consequences. It basically legitimizes crappy journalism.

    Okay, rant off…

  2. Ken

    You’re right on about this, and speaking of crappy journalism, when Michaels asked Robert Kraft about the issue and Kraft said he had no idea about what was happening, I believed that in the way that I believe a mafia don who says he doesn’t know what his underlings are up to.

  3. Kraft was so full of shit. It gets more and more obvious every time something goes wrong in the NFL at how much the tv networks are in bed with them. I wish whomever was interviewing him would have had some balls and called him on the fact that he didn’t know it was going on.

  4. err… wasn’t Norv the QB coach in SD before taking the offensive coordinator spot in SF? that’s probably why, because of familiarity…

  5. I don’t think familiarity is a good enough excuse to justify 58-82. Just my opinion.

  6. Theoretically, Norv is there because of the familiarity with the team and system. He was the O-coordinator in 01 and installed the offense.

    Though you’d not know it through 2 games, as they’ve totally sucked on O.

    Btw, since you brought up the Simmons article, I had some serious beefs with it. The issue was the Patriots cheating, not Merriman getting popped hot, as he tried to make it. Then twisting the Shanahan thing in, some mention of the 70′s era Steelers being dirty and basically trying to deflect blame by trashing any other team he could. I believe he also brought in the Giants and LT playing coked up and calling prostitutes for the opponents the night before games.

    The point to all this is how the Patriots are the model franchise, and the media has been licking their feet for years. The high and mighty position Patriots players have taken (Vrabel during the draft calling Castillo a cheat for using ‘roids to heal from a pre-camp injury, more spiel on Merriman by various members of the team) then to see that they’re not so great, not so pure and clean as they’ve been painted. For many of us that root for teams that have to endure these potshots and media piling on, it was great to see this so called ‘model’ franchise get finally called out. Shut them up a bit.

    Let them take their lumps like the rest have had to take. Tired of everyone making excuses for them. Quicker they just suck it up and move on, the quicker the rest of us can. But if some of the more outlandish accusations are true (mic’ing defensive players, frequency jamming) then more should be done.

  7. It didn’t justify what Art Shell did with the Raiders last year.

  8. It is the wrong time for McNabb to be saying this.
    http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3025308

    he is going to get creamed by the media about this.

  9. I have a question about the relationship between the owners and the commissioner.

    Do the owners have the ability to fire Goodell? If so, wouldn’t it be worth it to note that power dynamic when interviewing Kraft? If Kraft _really_ didn’t like the decision, and other owners agreed, couldn’t they find a *new* Goodell?

    That’s like the President of the US pretending the Vice President makes all the decisions…. wait… bad example…

  10. Y’all need to jump on this McNabb stuff man. This needs a TSF take.

  11. GMP,
    No doubt. “Though you’d not know it through 2 games, as they’ve totally sucked on O” and I guess that’s what I meant as far as getting head coaching jobs. It’s just my nod to that coaching carousel of very limited choices.

  12. McNabb can’t be serious, can he? After his performance thus far this season, he’s lucky to be starting right now.

    I would love DWil’s take on this.

  13. Wasn’t the last time the Eagles were 0-2 that we had the Rush Limbaugh incident about his remarks about McNabb & black quarterbacks?

  14. There’s nothing wrong with McNabb’s remarks. At all. Of course the usual suspects will holler and make silly statements like “he’s lucky to be starting right now” which, is ridiculous.

  15. There’s nothing wrong with McNabb’s remarks. At all.

    Joey Harrington, Rex Grossmann, Peyton Manning, (before his Super Bowl), Eli Manning, Dan Marino, Steve Young (before his Super Bowl), Chad Pennington, Tim Couch, Ryan Leaf and a host of others would like to have a word with you.

    Don’t these people ever get tired of using the race card? Don’t they know how foolish it makes them sound?

  16. If Rex Grossman was Black he WOULD NOT be starting for the Bears.

  17. and yes…Donnie Mac is going to get absolutely HAMMERED on this one.

    I ain’t mad at him. I just wish they had won the day before this hit the screen.

    I think I hear the trolls coming.

  18. Harrington – sucks
    Grossman – sucks
    P. Manning – couldn’t win a big game, repeatedly choked in big games from college until last year
    E. Manning – little punk came into league on his last name, cried when he was drafted, had his daddy come to protect him, and helped engineer an extremely lopsided trade that cost the team he went to dearly
    Marino – I don’t recall him being ridden all that bad
    Young – replaced the legend that was Montana, who is still regarded by some as the best QB ever
    Pennington – weak arm, gets hurt a lot, plays in NY and Jet fans are notoriously brutal
    Couch – flat out sucked, and just disappeared yet was drafted before McNabb, recieved less criticism
    Leaf – sucked, sucked, sucked… crybaby who sucked and in case I haven’t made it apparent, HE SUCKED!

    McNabb – MVP candidate in previous seasons, took his team to multiple championship games and a SB. Has only had one good WR for one season. Injury prone though, but his coach calls pass over 60% of the time.

    Of the QB’s you listed, really only McNabb and P. Manning have had to put up with similar crap based on the fact they actually produce. Comparatively speaking, McNabb and Marino have more in common team wise (average or worse WRs, avg or worse running games). So based on what he’s done in the league, and the amount of flak he’s received over the years, he does have a point.

    I can’t say it is only because he’s black, or if its because success breeds high expectations, that when failed to be reached cause a backlash. The latter case would be where I think P. Manning, Marino (though I don’t remember much trash talk on Marino, everyone knew his teams were flawed) and McNabb fall. Though McNabb gets the added trash for being a black QB. As stated in another thread, Black QB’s are always referred to as ‘athletic’, they get dogged for leaving the pocket… and when they stop leaving the pocket (McNabb) they’re old, slow, or ‘not playing their game’.

  19. “If Rex Grossman was Black he WOULD NOT be starting for the Bears.”

    COSIGN, COSIGN, COSIGN!!!!

    And please ignore Friedman the guy is a troll.

  20. Ah Friedman, trying to use the old false equivalency tactic. Too bad for you that GMP destroyed it above.

  21. I know his role…I just wanted to throw that out there.

    Let’s call the role of QBs of the future who got shots that they NEVER would have gotten if they were black.

    Drew Henson
    Chad Hutchinson
    Scott Mitchell
    Bubby Brister
    Jim Miller
    Chris Weinke
    How much did they pay Jake Plummer?
    Jay Fiedler
    How many QBs has MacNabb had to fight off…remember OG Bobby Hoying?

    They wanted to dispose of DMac for BOBBY FREAKIN HOYING…

  22. If Rex Grossman was Black he WOULD NOT be starting for the Bears.

    So Lovie Smith is racist toward black people? Interesting.

    The point is, GMP, and why I included those terrible QBs, is that they are criticized based on their performance. What a concept! You admit Peyton received just as much heat: so what do you attribute that to? Can’t be race, right — so what is it? And guess what: Peyton Manning is 10x the QB McNabb will ever be.

    Also, McNabb plays in Philadelphia, the same fans who gave Mike Schmidt — only the greatest third baseman of all-time — a tremendous amount of heat. Hmm.

    Origin, you crying “troll” is your way of showing that you have no arguments, except of course to “cosign” the race card. Shocking, really.

  23. LOL 1350 comments on ESPN lmao 90% use the tried and untrue “playing the race card” cliche… McNabb is absolutely correct in his assessment of the QB position in the NFL.

  24. Great post GMP. Also I have always said that mcnabb is trashed in the media because he is the most successful black QB on and off the field.

    No black QB has had the combination of on the field success (regular season and playoff wins) and off the field ( jersey sales, marketing) that Mcnabb has.

    NO one including Moon, Mcnair, Cunningham, Vick and Doug Williams.

    He is the fisrt Black QB that I have known to even be mentioned as a top 5 QB from the white media.

    Even during Moons prime playing days I can remember folks like peter King and mags like SI considered him a top 15 QB but not a top 10 or 5. I even remember one SI article ( around 1991) that king wrote where he said that he ranked Moon as the 15th best QB in the league. His reason was that moon put up impressive stats because he passed all the time so he couldn’t rank him higher. Yet this same reasoning wasn’t used to rank Marino who was ranked number 3. Peter even stated steve Deberg was a better QB then moon.

    Even at a young age I knew then that it was time to stop reading SI.

  25. Friedman –

    Well, 1 of 10, you were bound to hit on one.
    And I said P. Manning received the heat based on early success breeding high expectations, same as McNabb. Those are the only two on your list that got beat up in the media in that way.

    McNabb is also black, so gets reamed on his approach to the pocket. If he runs, he gets the ‘he’s putting himself in harms way and failing to find the open receiver… not looking downfield’ crap, that kind of stuff. If he does stay in the pocket, it is because he’s getting old and slow, he’s afraid to run, doesn’t want to get hurt. He gets the added damned if you do, damned if you don’t of being a black ‘athletic’ QB.

    Also, Manning is probably a better QB, but I don’t think you want to compare offensive weapons. Marvin Harrison v Pinkston,Thrash? You could compare Harrison to Owens, but that was one season only. Reggie Wayne v whoever the Eagle #2 is? Peytons #3 guy in most seasons has been better than McNabbs #1. LJ Smith is good, but better than Dallas Clark, Marcus Pollard? Edgerrin James/Addai or Westbrook and whatever other trash the Eagles have thrown out there at RB for the last 7 yrs?

    McNabb has had trash for recievers his whole career (minus one year… we know how that turned out)and no real running game. Peyton has had Harrison his whole career and some of the best RB’s in the league (Marshall Faulk, Edge, and now Addai), plus good 2 and 3 WRS and good TE’s. So, I wouldn’t say Peyton is 10x the QB. He may be a bit better, he seems to get a lot of commercials and stand at the line of scrimmage yelling a lot of stuff, but not 10x.

  26. See…Friedman thinks that its about Lovie.

    It aint about Lovie…Its about the Fanbase.

    You think the Fanbase would tolerate…say…Tavaris Jackson playing like THAT? They would bring Bob Avellini out of retirement just to keep the bloodlust from the fans and the Media down.

    They talked about how Ron Jaworski was BELOVED in Philadelphia and Donovan wasnt on MNF last night.

    I dont suppose Friedman would like to explain that away.

  27. “The point is, GMP, and why I included those terrible QBs, is that they are criticized based on their performance. What a concept!”

    Dimwitted as usual Friedman. A key point that McNabb was making was making, using a good performance by him as an example, was that black QBs are often criticized regardless of their performace. Did you even bother to read his statements or are you just arguing against what you imagined he said? Btw, I’m sure you criticized Rush Limbaugh for his use of the “race card” when he criticized McNabb a while back, right?

  28. Am I the only one who saw the graphic of the leading recievers in Philly during the McNabb era?

    Torrance Small
    Chad Lewis
    James Thrash
    Todd Pinkston
    The Player
    Reggie Brown
    Bryan Westbrook

    so…would anyone care to comment on the fact that…Brandon Stokely is better than ANY of these dudes.

    and despite that…

    McNabb has 153 TD and only 73 Ints.

    4 NFC Championship appearances.

  29. and FINALLY…

    Byron Leftwich is sitting at home…

    while Charlie Frye is collecting a check with Seattle.

    The Prosecution rests.

  30. DW-

    I actually did mention that, kind of hidden in there though. His list of WRs…. my god, all you have to do is watch that Pinkston ‘I’m wide open, but Sean Taylor is big and mean so I’m going to stop running to the ball’ clip on youtube. I don’t have the link anymore, I know somebody else has seen it though.

    And McNabb was doing just fine no real hate thrown his way, then Limbaugh came out with his ‘McNabb is overhyped because he’s black’ statement. Then in fine media form, they jumped Limbaugh, then after they were through, turned on McNabb as soon as he had the audacity to get hurt (hernia) and try to play. Backlash is a bitch.

  31. Here’s the reality folks. “Ni$$er STFU and play! If I want you Black ass to say something I’ll beat it out of you”. This is what the comments on ESPN want to say; this is what Friedman wants to say; this is what the MSM wants to say. Donovan was everyone’s ‘boy’ when he took the company (and NFL) line and bashed TO now when he actually says something that’s really from HIS heart, everyone retorts with the STFU and play football crap. For those that mention Gross-Man and McNabb in the same breath you need to immediately kill yourselves (or at least stop watching sports) because you know nothing.

    As GMP accurately points out, McNabb’s career parallels P. Manning’s more than anyone else except that Manning has always had superior talent around him offensively. Being a Cowboy fan, I hate the Eagles and I take great joy in losses like last night, however, to boo DMac in philly shows just how classless those fans are. Also If McNabb has publicly stated that he’s 75%, why would Big Red, Andy Ried, call for 60% of the plays to be passes, especially when Westbrook was getting 5.3 YPR??? Yet Reid isn’t under the scrutiny that McNabb is under.

    Drew Brees, who I like as a QB, is 0-2, yet no one is calling for his head.

  32. “and FINALLY…

    Byron Leftwich is sitting at home…

    while Charlie Frye is collecting a check with Seattle.

    The Prosecution rests.”

    Davey you took the words right out of my mouth with that.

  33. “Also If McNabb has publicly stated that he’s 75%, why would Big Red, Andy Ried, call for 60% of the plays to be passes, especially when Westbrook was getting 5.3 YPR??? Yet Reid isn’t under the scrutiny that McNabb is under.”

    I made a similiar comment in another post. Maybe its the same situation that Bettis pointed out about Kordell is his book. Maybe they are trying to set my boy Mcnabb up.

    Anyway Fat @ss reid passes the ball 70% of the time last year. Mcnabb gets hurt……..then as soon as Garcia is the QB Fat @ss reid starts to run the ball 50% of the time.

    So he basically gets Mcnabb hurt passing 70% of the time as he did the year before. (they passed 70% of the time before he was hurt that year too.)Then decides to run the ball.

  34. Funny… I actually was gonna mention Leftwich also… 21-17 W/L record… and JP Lossman, Eli Manning, Trent Green, Josh McCown, Huard, Delhomme are all working

  35. What McNabb is saying is correct for the most part. (But, um, Kordell Stewart held onto his position for a while, I would say.)But I hate the timing of these remarks. These remarks will clearly pressure the Eagles to keep him in the starting position a year or two longer so as not to look like racists. Don’t think Donovan doesn’t know that; why didn’t he say this in the good years, where it was clear he should be applauded? And McNabb has reason to worry about his position, gaudy stats or no gaudy stats (ask Kurt Warner about how quick the fall can be).

    Has anyone checked McNabb’s stat line lately? He’s ranked 21′st among QB’s in the league http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/playerrankings . And if his receivers are so bad, then why were white QB’s like Jeff Garcia and AJ Feely able to do so well in the Phily offense when McNabb went down? I think part of it is that Andy Reid simplified the offense and stopped passing so much, but you have to wonder.

  36. The fact that these white cats are comparing McNabb to bums is so funny.

    The fact that Peyton Manning managed to win two MVPS while consistently losing in the early rounds of the playoffs speaks volumes.

    The fact that Big Ben led the LEAGUE in interceptions last year after hurting himself by violating his contract in the off season and didn’t get anything close to the criticism that McNabb got in the Super Bowl is hilarious.

    The fact that Carson Palmer has been to the playoffs exactly once in his career despite having infinitely more offensive talent than McNabb, but is still considered top three in the league makes me laugh.

    The fact that Byron Leftwich spent less time with the Jags than Harrington spent with the Lions is sad. The fact that Harrington is still an NFL starter is ridiculous.

    The fact that Alex Smith and Vince Young have eerily similar playing styles, eerily similar levels of talent around them and vastly different records in conferences with vastly different talent levels, yet Young gets 10 times the criticism is amazing. Nobody sees this, nobody notices the disparities.

  37. Sportsdiva, he’s not 58-82 at San Diego. He’s 0-2… Those rosters he had in WAS were a joke in comparison to what he has in SD. To also hold the OAK sorryness against him is wrong too… that organization is flat out f’ed up. As evidenced by the fact that no other big name head coach wants to go there, including Art Shell who they practically begged to coach there…

    #29 – Davey Wayne

    “and FINALLY…

    Byron Leftwich is sitting at home…

    while Charlie Frye is collecting a check with Seattle.

    The Prosecution rests.”

    My thoughts on this are as follows:
    1. If Leftwich hasn’t re-signed because he wants to start wherever he goes? Then let him sit.

    2. Leftwich doesn’t have a contract, he isn’t costing anyone any money right now. Why sign him to “starter’s money”, when you can deal a 4th (or later) round pick for a guy under contract, to be the 3rd string?

    3. Would you bitch about Leftwich not be given a chance to start in Seattle had the Seabags signed him? Why don’t you complain about Frye not starting in Seattle?

    funny… funny… funny… COSIGN COSIGN COSIGN I SAY!!!

  38. Davey says

    “It aint about Lovie…Its about the Fanbase.”

    You are right and I would also like to add that its about the Mckaskeys too. Just like Al Davis in Oakland the Mckaskeys have they’re hands all in teh personel decisions. Always have!!!! I am from chicago and know first hand. I was in chicago at a bar when teh bears lost in the superbowl and no one would blame the QB for the lose. The whole reason they lost the superbowl was because of the QB. The colts dared Rex to beat then with his arm. And he couldn’t……..inaccurate passes, inability to read the defense. Also lets no forget the inability to even take the snap from center.

    Yet fans all over chicago made excuse after excuse. The good yuppies in the neighborhood bar where my parents live were making excuse after excuse. While I was syaing to myself this is teh worst NFL QB play that I have ever seen.

    Realize these were the same fans that ran Kordell off due to his poor QB play a few years earliar. Mind you taht he didn’t have the OL, WR or running game that the mental midget Rex has now.

  39. Bullshit McBias.

    Jeff Garcia did well in a Philly offense that emphasized the run and the receivers still sucked ass.

    Feeley was 3-1 before being thrust into the starting role for an extended period of time, at which point Ty Detmer was called in to start.

    The whole idea that Philly killed with Garcia is a freaking myth. They went on a winning streak, but it wasn’t because Garcia was outrageous.

    What’s amazing is that Garcia gets credit for the Eagles winning when McNabb went down, even though they lost initially with him until Trotter was added to the defense, but McNabb has never gotten the credit he deserved for leading the Eagles to all those NFC Championship games.

  40. Allen?

    “The fact that these white cats are comparing McNabb to bums is so funny.”
    You’re right, anyone listing out Harrington in a comparison to McNabb is stupid

    “The fact that Peyton Manning managed to win two MVPS while consistently losing in the early rounds of the playoffs speaks volumes.”
    The MVP award is given for regular season achievement, but I guess you also want Derek Jeter to win the MVP because he hits good in the playoffs too right?

    “The fact that Big Ben led the LEAGUE in interceptions last year after hurting himself by violating his contract in the off season and didn’t get anything close to the criticism that McNabb got in the Super Bowl is hilarious.”
    1 year he lead the league in interceptions, after leading his team to the SuperBowl. He won the Super Bowl, McNabb didn’t! Roethlisberger got criticized, but maybe you didn’t watch ESPN because you were mad the Steelers didn’t start Charlie Batch over him

    “The fact that Carson Palmer has been to the playoffs exactly once in his career despite having infinitely more offensive talent than McNabb, but is still considered top three in the league makes me laugh.”
    top three statistically, maybe. I’d take Carson Palmer over McNabb though, but that’s just my opinion. McNabb isn’t top 5 anymore, but he’s still top 10.

    “The fact that Byron Leftwich spent less time with the Jags than Harrington spent with the Lions is sad. The fact that Harrington is still an NFL starter is ridiculous.”
    who else is going to start in Atlanta? Name the guys… Omar Jacobs? that guy Printers that was money in the CFL? or did you expect the Falcons to trade for a player, when they didn’t know until DURING TRAINING CAMP that Vick was going to be out? Obviously you’ve never played football before, otherwise you would know it takes longer than 2 weeks to learn a playbook

    “The fact that Alex Smith and Vince Young have eerily similar playing styles, eerily similar levels of talent around them and vastly different records in conferences with vastly different talent levels, yet Young gets 10 times the criticism is amazing. Nobody sees this, nobody notices the disparities.”
    What criticism does Young get? Besides his girly throwing mechanics and his highly publicized training camp fight, what else has he been criticized for? Alex Smith doesn’t get criticized because SF isn’t legitimate until now. You must not be hearing the same “If Alex Smith doesn’t get it done this year he’s out” talk like I’ve heard on the NFL shows

  41. Boney

    Talk to Ray Rhodes and Dennis Green about shitty rosters while you’re making excuses for Norv Turner.

    Than ask Romeo Crennel about how hot his seat is right now.

    Than ask Tony Dungy what his reward was for turning a piss-poor Bucs team into a contender and then doing the same thing with the Colts.

    Ask Dungy how it feels to watch Gruden get a big ass pass after three dismal seasons when you were shown the door because you had reached a plateau of success.

    Thank explain to Marvin Lewis all the heat he’s getting, while Dick Jauron wallows in mediocrity in Buffalo after fucking up the Cincinatti situation beyond belief.

  42. Kordell Stewart held on to his job by winning games.

    And because Cowher and the Rooneys backed him after seeing how he performed his first full year as a starter.

    WHen Kordell could manage the game, the Steelers won…when he had to WIN the game, the Steelers looked bad.

    and much of that stemmed from offensive Offensive Coordinating.

    People wanted to Fire Cowher JUST because he wouldnt get rid of Stewart.

    and the reality was…there wasnt anyone better.

    The second there was an option…

    Hello Tommy Maddox. Goodbye Kordell Stewart.

  43. Allen #39

    what the hell do you want the media to give McNabb???? He lead his team to the NFC Championship game 4 times, big deal! He got credit for it every time he did it.

    Unless.. you know… you want me to say the Eagles were the poor man’s version of the early 90′s Bills and all…

  44. Mcbias the eagles don’t give a D2mn how they look to the world. The NFL included……since when does professional sports leagues give a D@mn about looking racist when it comes to their black athletes. As long as their paying white customers and fans don’t give a shh they don’t give a shhh.

    If they gave a shh about looking racist the washington redskins would have changed their name a long time ago. But their paying customers don’t give a F so they don’t give a F.

    “Nothing here keep moving along folks”

    “And if his receivers are so bad, then why were white QB’s like Jeff Garcia and AJ Feely able to do so well in the Phily offense when McNabb went down? I think part of it is that Andy Reid simplified the offense and stopped passing so much, but you have to wonder.”

    Also re read my comments about this

    Anyway Fat @ss reid passes the ball 70% of the time last year. Mcnabb gets hurt……..then as soon as Garcia is the QB Fat @ss reid starts to run the ball 50% of the time.

    So he basically gets Mcnabb hurt passing 70% of the time as he did the year before. (they passed 70% of the time before he was hurt that year too.)Then decides to run the ball.

    No team has ever made it to the palyoffs passing the ball 70% of the time.

    He11 the eagles were the first team to go to the superbowl passing the ball 65% of the time.

    Anyway at those rates your asking your QB to get killed period.

  45. Let the record show…I would take Palmer over McNabb.

    Palmer, Brady, Manning, thats ABOUT it.

  46. I checked the stats, Allen. You’re right, Feeley was awful even when the team was winning. But Trotter got cut this year; I doubt your comment. Was he really that good? And where was Garcia before he replaced McNabb? Garcia was starting for the Lions and Browns before he went to the Eagles. Those are not good teams. Yet, when he QB’s for the Eagles, he still put up similar stats to McNabb that year (same QB rating, fewer TD’s, fewer INT’s). Look, if this was McNabb two years ago, I wouldn’t be making these points; he was a great QB then. But I think he’s clearly lost something; too many injuries from Reid’s pass-happy offense. (And if he throws for 350 and 3 TD’s next week, I make my way over here and say I’m wrong, ha. But not so far.)

    I say McNabb is a system QB, as is Tom Brady. Both the Eagles and the Patriots are so strong on the lines (offense and defense) that I believe the QB’s don’t matter much. If Brady would go down in New England, I believe that his back-up would be just as successful as Garcia was in Philly.

  47. I would only take Brady over MCnabb if those guys had to play with that trash Mcnabb has had to play with all these years.

    He is the John Elway of this era. Before he got TD and S..Sharp.

  48. If McNabb gets so much credit…why was there debate about starting…

    AJ Feely in the playoffs?

    Why was there a question about resigning Jeff Garcia.

    How come we sit and wait for Brett Favre to “get some help” and there is NO such waiting for McNabb.

    Ill be McNabb WISHES he had Donald Driver.

  49. Hey Boney

    I was all-district and all-parish as a lineman in high school, I know a little bit about footabll.

    If I remember correctly, than the Titans start Kerry Collins last year without anytime learning the playbook? Granted he sucked, but I’m guessing that you don’t need a full training camp to learn an abbreviated version of the playbook. But maybe I’m wrong.

    Ask Dirk about the MVP being a regular season award. It doesn’t matter what timeframe you win the award for, if you don’t come through in the clutch you get criticized. Peyton has never received the same level of criticism or hate that McNabb has gotten despite more failures. That’s a fact.

    Before Vince Young put the Titans on his back last year, were they legitimate Boney? I thought they were in the middle of a salary cap and lacked the requiste talent to compete? They sure didn’t look competitive before Vince took over.

    Maybe I missed something, but aren’t the Niners the sleeper pick of half of the NFL analysts in the country. Don’t they have a top running back and a staunch defense?

    And put Vince Young’s name in on You Tube and you can find several clips of him getting ripped by analysts.

    I call bullshit for the level of expectations placed on Vince compared to Alex Smith. This is Smith’s third year in the freaking league! Frank Gore is a stud. Walt harris is a stud. Bryant Young is a stud.

  50. “Boney

    Talk to Ray Rhodes and Dennis Green about shitty rosters while you’re making excuses for Norv Turner.
    give me a break about Ray Rhodes and Dennis Green. They have had their chances just like Norv has had his. I don’t think Norv should have a job, but do Ray Rhodes or Dennis Green have history with the players on the Chargers roster???? please dude, why bring in a new coach with a new scheme to screw up 14-2?

    Than ask Romeo Crennel about how hot his seat is right now.
    Cleveland is a joke, an absolute joke. Enough said

    Than ask Tony Dungy what his reward was for turning a piss-poor Bucs team into a contender and then doing the same thing with the Colts.
    he may have turned a piss poor Bucs team into something decent, but he never got them over 8-8 or 9-7 and past the 1st round of the playoffs did he? Ask Wayne Fontes about mediocrity, and where it gets you

    Ask Dungy how it feels to watch Gruden get a big ass pass after three dismal seasons when you were shown the door because you had reached a plateau of success.
    I think the Bucs (and you) should know that the team that won the Superbowl was at the brink of over the hill when they won it. Coaches should get some latitude to rebuild, shouldn’t they? I mean, ask Dennis Green right?

    Thank explain to Marvin Lewis all the heat he’s getting, while Dick Jauron wallows in mediocrity in Buffalo after fucking up the Cincinatti situation beyond belief.
    Dick Jauron didn’t coach the Bengals, he coached the Bears and the Lions (interim). So before you want to argue with me, at least get your Dick’s right. Dick LeBeau coached in Cincinnati, for a notoriously cheap owner. It’s actually pretty unfair to bitch about anything that’s happened in Cincinnati because they sucked for so long…

  51. Boney, did Jim Kelly get the same level of criticism that McNabb has gotten?

    Since you brought up the Bills.

    I don’t remember people wondering if Kelly was going to make it to the Hall of Fame. I’ve heard those rumblings about McNabb though.

  52. Tom Brady’s SYSTEM is vastly superior to Donovan McNabb’s System.

    Andy Reid Drops the entire load of the Offense squarely on the shoulders of #5 but gets all innovative when they take his crutches away.

    Andy Reid and Management is the problem.

    How could they miss on receivers…SO MANY times?

  53. Oh, and Origin, sorry, didn’t see your first comment before I posted. You’re right, the offensive scheme was different. But I still have suspicions about McNabb’s timing of his comments and about his ability right now (not over his career, just the last few years). For the record, I have the same suspicions about Tom Brady’s true talent level. Ouch, now I’m going to get it from both Philly and NE fans, but that’s what I think.

  54. Bullshit McBias on the strength of the Eagles line. No offense though.

    Check out the numbers on how the defense improved once Trotter arrived. He had a career resurgence after he came back from the Redskins. They were doing features on that.

    As Origin has noted, Garcia excelled in a more tradtional offense. He wasn’t asked to carry the team the same way McNabb has been. Nobody mentions this and it’s pissing me off.

    And calling Tom Brady and McNabb system QBs is crazy. Both of those guys are great passers.

  55. “Andy Reid and Management is the problem.

    How could they miss on receivers…SO MANY times?”

    Kevin Fing Curtis is the big play receiver in the Eagles offense.

    They play a west coast offense with WRs that can’t run after the catch.

    What a joke. Their best WR is westbrook and he is the RB.

    Fat @ss Andy Reid is the long lost brother of Mike Martz………these fools would rather pass on 3rd and 2 then run for an easy 1st down.

    I can’t wait till Mcnabb leaves so they can enjoy those 4-12 seasons with Kevin Kolb…….dumb @ss philly fans.

  56. Kelly also had 300+ TDs if I’m not mistaken didn’t he?

    why should McNabb go to the hall of fame for 170 TDs?

  57. Allen, they picked up Collins because your boy Billy Volek pouted his way to becoming the 3rd string QB in SD. Do you think it’s fair to start Vince the 1st week of his career? How many QBs succeed at that? You saw how horrible the Titans were with Collins in there, you can see why teams don’t do it. They had a need, and Collins was a veteran QB and he was available… please, use a better example.

    the Niners may be something THIS year, but what have they been the last 2 years with Smith at the helm? Absolutely nothing until the last half of last year… Alex Smith started early on in year 1, earlier than Young did, and was horrible. He doesn’t have the running ability that Young has, sure he may be mobile a little bit but they don’t run the spread option in the NFL like they do in college. So no, they don’t have the same “tools”. It’s not a comparison, by any means.

  58. Actually Norv is 1-1 in SD. The Patriot game hurt, but it wasn’t worth two losses, it felt like it, but thankfully it isn’t a two game screw up.

    McNabb is getting trashed, and has been since the Limbaugh thing, a reverse backlash occurred and only got worse with the TO situation.

    And I think a big part of what people are missing with the concentration on McNabb is the what he said. He said something that was written on here a few days ago by jweiler (http://thestartingfive.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/all-out-guys/) that the black QB (athlete) is expected to do a bit more.

    There isn’t a lot of mediocre black QB’s in the league. Charlie Batch and Jon Kitna pretty much have corresponding careers… Batch is the Black Kitna, career back-up that can win you a few, maybe do well in the right situation. But other than Batch, there isn’t many mediocre black QB’s. Either they’re the star and starter, or they’re out of the league (or playing some sort of slash position, ie Seneca Wallace).

  59. Boney, you need to pull Dungy’s stats with the Bucs and see what their record was, who the starting QBs were and how far they went in the playoffs before you start spouting off bullshit.

    I’m not even going to address the stuff about Dennis Green. Check out his career numbers and playoffs appearances and tell me how he stacks up to Norv Turner.

    And you can get a big PUHLEESE on the Bucs being over the hill. That defense can still contend. Gruden was the problem. Not old players.

    Thank you for correcting me about Dick Jauron. Both he and Dick Lebeau suck ass.

    It’s amazing that you can agree with me on some of these points yet still discount the idea that race plays a role.

  60. Garcia wasn’t asked to carry the team well.. because umm… he was the BACKUP QB! That’s the same thing that happened with Feeley, it’s the same thing that happened with the Detmers…

    Why should a franchise QB be coddled like a rookie or a backup?

  61. No Kelly had 237 TDs and 35,000 yards pasing.

    http://www.jt-sw.com/football/pro/players.nsf/ID/06710059

  62. “he may have turned a piss poor Bucs team into something decent, but he never got them over 8-8 or 9-7 and past the 1st round of the playoffs did he? Ask Wayne Fontes about mediocrity, and where it gets you”

    WRONG!!!!!!! again sir… Dungy’s record @ TB was 54 & 42 and the 11-5, ’99 team lost in the NFC Championship game to the high octane Rams team by a final score of 11-6

  63. Tony Dungy was 54-42 in Tampa with Trent Dilfer and Shaun King at QB.

    They Lost to the Rams in the NFC Championship game in 1999. 11-6

    The lost the next two years to Philadelphia IN Philadelphia as a wild card team.

  64. I get a big puhlease over the Bucs being over the hill? Warren Sapp? Jon Lynch? Derrick Brooks? They’re not old??? Brad Johnson? come on man, that team has been rebuilding since they got their rings!

    Dennis Green only succeeded because of the ability to throw the ball up in the air deep, and have his receivers run under it in Minnesota.

    My bad on Dungy, I didn’t realize he only made it to the 2nd round of the playoffs 2 times in Tampa. I guess he deserves something for it right? Obviously the team was talented enough to go further, because another coach won it the next season! I’m not trying to bad mouth Dungy, but let’s be honest. He could only take a team so far, without the OC in Indy right now they’d be mediocre, at best… he’s lucky the offense bailed out their sorry defenses the last couple of years.

  65. Good one Aone……….I was about to post those stats.

    I guess he forgot Dungy took a Rookie QB Shaun King and the bucs to the NFC championship game against the Rams (the year they won the superbowl).

    And they pretty much shut their high powered offense down.

  66. So, Boney, youd rather Air it out because you CAN even though its proven that you can win by throwing the ball less?

    I submit to you that with a more ground oriented game plan…AND McNabb, the Eagles would be even MORE sucessful.

  67. McNabb has like 12,000+ yards to go to catch Kelly.

    Wayne Fontes was 66-67, he deserves a job too!

  68. One last thing on McNabb and Manning. Colts made a commitment to surrounding Manning with talent, sometimes going way overboard on the offensive side and just making do on D. Eagles have never made that commitment to get talent for McNabb. They did draft FredEx though… ever look at that draft and see who they passed on? Chad Johnson and Steve Smith went in the 2nd round of that draft and I believe they grabbed Freddie before Reggie Wayne went off the board.

    Now McNabb comes back from injury, and instead of getting him some weapons… they trade off their first rounder to the Cowboys, so the Cowboys can draft another rusher to put opposite DeMarcus Ware, and they spend their 2nd on a QB. You don’t think that’d piss you off a bit if you had Pinkston or Thrash as your #1 WR for 6 of 8 seasons?

    They had a decent ground game with Duce… let him go, even though he’d be great in tandem with Westbrook. I’m not even a Philly fan, and it pisses me off. Look at the Eagle roster over the years and you wonder how they even did as well as they did.

  69. DaveyWayne, if the team isn’t suited to run the ball 30 times a game then you need to pass it. What’s so hard about figuring that out?

    If you give the ball to Brian Westbrook 30 times a game, he’ll get hurt.

  70. McNabb has no weapons, but neither did Garcia or Feeley. That’s not intended to be a knock against McNabb, I’m just saying that Garcia played with the same guys that McNabb did…

  71. “Dennis Green only succeeded because of the ability to throw the ball up in the air deep, and have his receivers run under it in Minnesota.”

    Is that right. You realize he went to the playoffs with 5 different QBs.

    Culpepper, Moon, Mcmahon, George and Cunningham.

    You realize that Moss wasn’t there all those years.

    Carter was there all those years. Jake reid was also there.

    Robert Smith wasn’t the starting runningback all those years either. Some year Terry Allen was the starting RB.

    Green always knew talent on the offensive side of the ball.

  72. #58 GMP, I agree with you about Charlie Batch. He’s always put up decent numbers and comes up with decent performances. If Kitna can still start, why not Charlie Batch? Now maybe he likes being in Pittsburgh since he grew up around there, but it still is kind of weird.

  73. “Dennis Green only succeeded because of the ability to throw the ball up in the air deep, and have his receivers run under it in Minnesota.”

    Using that logic I can say the following:

    1. Shannahan only succeeded because he had Terrell Davis
    2. Gruden only succeeded because he had a shut down defense
    3. Bellicheck only succeeded because he had Tom Brady
    4. Parcells only succeeded because he had an elite LB core
    5. Coughlin only succeeded, wait, no he didn’t succeed at anything
    6. Vermiel only succeeded because because of the ability to throw the ball up in the air deep, and have his receivers run under it in St. Louis
    7. Billick see Gruden
    8. Every other coach that won something…

    Yet another ill conceived argument on your part Boney

  74. Boney, you accuse me of not knowing anything about football and then equate running a balanced offense with coddling?

    Now, now, don’t make yourself look like an idiot.

  75. “Boney, you accuse me of not knowing anything about football and then equate running a balanced offense with coddling?

    Now, now, don’t make yourself look like an idiot.”

    Too late for that warning.

    So let me get this straight Boney the NFL is like the CFL right? Where you can pass 70% of the time and win a superbowl.

    He11 if that the case everybody needs to run the run and shoot.

    F using a TE and FB!!!!

  76. Once again you missed hte point on Garcia

    He lost in the FIRST round. They went 9-7.

    Last time I checked, McNabb took the same guys Garcia got toe 9-7 to the effing NFC championship game.

    You are making piss poor arguments Bodie to deny the part race plays in the NFL.

  77. So steve Spurrier should have passed more at Washington thats why he didn’t succeed……….Ohh now I see.

    Say what boney the cowboys would have won more superbowls if they would have ran emmit less and passed more.

    Yeah that D@mn emmit cheated Aikman and the team out of atleast 3 more rings.

    That Bas@#rd!!!!

  78. But its the same team. Why is Jeff Garcia throwing less?

    If anything the Defense should key on westbrook more.

    and why cant they seem to get a Running back OTHER than Brian Westbrook for such occasions.

    The fact is the game plan is Different for Garcia than it is for McNabb.

    I dont understand why that is.

    if anything running the ball should be EASIER under McNabb than under Garcia.

  79. Ok, on Dungy now.

    The Bucs were the worst team in the league over a 20 year span until Dungy took over. I remember seeing a stat on ESPN (back in the day… before it sucked nuts) and it said the Bucs would have to go 16-0 for 10 straight seasons to even get their franchise record to .500. This was 10+ yrs ago, so it has changed, but it only changed because of Dungy.

    He couldn’t get past the Rams, back when the Rams had the reigning NFL Offensive player of the year (Marshall Faulk) and NFL MVP (Kurt Warner), and it wasn’t the D that let them down. He was starting Shaun King who pretty much sucked, but once he lost his starting job, was out of the league. He didn’t even get the golden parachute afforded to the other (white) sorry starters that go to become career backups.

    Now, I hate defending the Colts. But they spend all their money on offense… Peyton doesn’t come cheap. So right there is Dungy’s genius. He makes a serviceable defense with cheap players and low draft picks. Anyone that doesn’t realize how bad the Bucs sucked pre-Dungy and doesn’t realize he’s made a decent defense with a lot less money spent on that side than the O, can not trash the man.

    I’m not even black, and I’ve noticed these things for years. It is why it irritates me, it makes me look bad by proxy that all these people spout this nonsense. I root for the black coaches and black QB’s because I’m tired of seeing them referred to as ‘black’ qb’s and ‘black’ coaches.

  80. “DaveyWayne, if the team isn’t suited to run the ball 30 times a game then you need to pass it. What’s so hard about figuring that out?

    If you give the ball to Brian Westbrook 30 times a game, he’ll get hurt.”

    Oh yeah that makes good sense, so let’s put the QB on a rebuilt knee out in space and let him throw the ball 46 times because we all know Top Flight QBs are a dime a dozen in the NFL, not RBs/

  81. “if anything running the ball should be EASIER under McNabb than under Garcia.”

    If not easier it would be smarter.

    Wouldn’t you want to protect your million dollar QB……….who just came off a knee injury?

    Would you drive your BMW that has a bad engine at 120 MPH?

    Nope

    Then why would they have their QB with a bad knee pass 70% of the time.

    Something fishy is going on plain and simple.

  82. Whoaaaa wait a minute on Charlie Batch.

    Charlie Batch was the QB of the FUTURE in Detroit after being pressed into service as a ROOKIE.

    he had a bad run of injuries after getting a decent contract and then the arrival of Joey Fingers spelled his exit from Detroit…

    he never played BADLY in Detroit, he just got hurt a lot.

    Charlie Batch is happy in Pittsburgh becuase they respect him and hes at home and hes well paid and he is guaranteed to have a chance at winning.

    Charlie COULD chase an extra mill or two and go somewhere that wont have as good of a team and then get run out of town for some overhyped Rookie who cant play again…..but why would he?

  83. Dammit Origin,

    you and I have a mental link today… Great minds brah

  84. and one OFTEN overlooked sidelight on The difference between 2001 and 2002.

    That was the year the NFC realigned and The Bucs went to the NFC South..saving themselves from those Trips up north to see Green Bay and Detroit and Minnesota…(even though they are indoors….neither is a nice trip to make when you live in Tampa)

    That was also the year that the Bears went 13-3 and the Pack went 12-4

    Then they went to hang out with the Saints, Falcons and Panthers…much easier trips to make..lets be honest.

  85. Great point DaveyW

  86. DaveyWayne, QB of the future in Detroit for Batch? I don’t know about all that… there were too many coaches that had too many ideas over how to run the team in Detroit.

    GMP, shaun king couldn’t stick in Detroit over McCown or Orlovsky last season… how good is he really?

    And to all of the guys on here arguing about passing more than running, I’m assuming your argument is centered around McNabb since he is the flavor of the day here, I mean he IS the one that everyone is after right… now that Leftwich isn’t on a team and Vick is gone?? it’s time to pick the next one and run him out right?

    In the case of Philly’s offense, sure you can run the ball or have a balanced offense. Any team in the NFL can. McNabb has more ability than Garcia does. Garcia isn’t going to win any games for anyone throwing 50 yard bombs all game long. But he can win games with more screen passes and dink and dunk. Let’s be honest, we all know McNabb doesn’t have playmakers at any offensive position besides Westbrook. The mere mention of playing in a game causes Buckhalter’s ACL to tear…

    You can take more risks with a guy in there like McNabb who can win a game with his ARM than a guy like Garcia can. McNabb can make plays, he can improvise whereas Garcia can’t. McNabb isn’t a pocket passer either, Garcia is. Please, come off of this “everyone’s out to get McNabb” argument. McNabb is 30 years old, rookie QBs need a year or 2 on the bench before they’re ready to play. McNabb’s contract PROBABLY isn’t cap friendly towards the end of it, considering I think he restructured it to bring in TO.

    Andy Reid isn’t setting McNabb up for failure. McNabb is a great QB who knows how to play the game. He’s an intelligent Quarterback when he’s not running his mouth about how he feels he should be the leader of the team. I liked McNabb at Syracuse, and I’m glad he’s played well despite the Philly fans’ initial cries for Ricky Williams.

  87. There is no doubt that black’s get held to a higher standard.

    There is no doubt that some white’s get lambasted, like Rex (who I personally think should be benched), even though he has a pretty damn good record over the past year.

    As to McNabb being challenged throughout his career, I think that’s a bit nuts. Kevin Kolb is looking like a smart pick right about now. With concerns over McNabb getting back to 100% after season ending surgery twice in three years, I think Kornheiser made a good point. The organization has a responsability to protect that position. There is no doubt he gets criticized more than many other perpetual starters at his position, but I would hardly say they’ve tried to get him out of there. Reid is just obsessed with the position.

    We have previously had conversations on this site as to whether or not McNabb is a future HOFer and the only one who said he is currently a clear cut HOFer right now was Mizzo. Who I believe is from Philly. The rest of us said he needs to keep his numbers up for a few more years or win a SB to merit it. I compared him with HOFers of 90′s and he only matches up with Jim Kelly, who I think we all agree got in more on the merit of 4 SB appearances than his stats.
    ———————————————————————————
    I’m a Leftwich fan who followed his career from early on. But I don’t think he’s a hands down starting Qb in this league. He hasn’t proven an ability to stay on the field and I’m sure his price isn’t as low as teams would like right now. DO NOT compare his situation with that of Charlie Frye. The Seahawks traded a guy who they would have otherwise cut for a draft pick. They then turned around and traded that pick for Frye. He was in essence free, and I’m sure his contract is friendly for the year.
    ———————————————————————————-
    As to the Pats. I think it isn’t comparable to other teams stealing signals. It’s one thing to write down signals from the stands and quite another to have video to back you up for future reference. Besides, only the video thing is against the rules. I believe other teams do do it, however the Pats got caught and were rightly punished for it. And since a lot of other rumors have come out of other ways in which the Pats may be using technology for competetive advantages people have a right to look at them a little crooked.

    The biggest joke is people who say they use this for in game adjustments and that’s impossible. I doubt that very much. But having video to synch up with game tape and use for future reference of conference opponents is pretty valuable.

  88. I don’t know how many of you would find that a little humorous… I’ll probably get scolded for posting it though. Sankofa wouldn’t approve of the humor…

  89. Once again you missed hte point on Garcia

    He lost in the FIRST round. They went 9-7.

    Um, no: he went 5-1. And they lost in the SECOND round of the playoffs. Why let facts get in the way of playing the race card, though?

  90. Boney

    If McNabb is put in a more difficult position than Garcia, why do people keep bring up Garcia’s success when talking about McNabb?

    If running the ball makes sense when you have a less than top flight quarterback, why aren’t people discussing Andy Reid’s decision to pass all the damn time.

    Everybody else on here has pointed out exactly how wrong you were about the Bucs and Dungy.

  91. Thank you Friedman, you are right.

    The team went 9-7 that’s what we were talking about.

    But, did you bother to read the rest of my points and come up with a decent response to them. No? I’m not surprised.

    I noticed you mentioned my obvious error, but ignored those made by Bodie. Why is that Friedman? Is it hard to turn against one of your Aryan brothers?

    And Bodie, I don’t think you are a member of the Aryan brotherhood or a racist. That was more of a comment on Friedman then anything else.

    Friedman, I do think you are.

  92. Boney-

    ‘My bad on Dungy, I didn’t realize he only made it to the 2nd round of the playoffs 2 times in Tampa. I guess he deserves something for it right? Obviously the team was talented enough to go further, because another coach won it the next season! I’m not trying to bad mouth Dungy, but let’s be honest. He could only take a team so far, without the OC in Indy right now they’d be mediocre, at best… he’s lucky the offense bailed out their sorry defenses the last couple of years.’

    ‘GMP, shaun king couldn’t stick in Detroit over McCown or Orlovsky last season… how good is he really?’

    Both your quotes. Playing both sides of the fence on that one. Shaun King was the QB that couldn’t beat out McCown, but was supposed to be good enough for Dungy to win a SB with TB?

    Cornelius-
    The eagles do have a right to protect the position. But if you were McNabb, wouldn’t it irritate you that the Eagles have never really made the attempt to surround you with talent then trade off the first round pick this year (to a division rival, who picked up another pass rusher) and pick up your replacement in the second round.

  93. Boney,

    from ESPN.com

    http://espn.go.com/nfl/columns/pasquarelli_len/1395983.html

    Only two years ago, Batch was regarded as the quarterback of the present and the future in Detroit, and he signed a six-year contract that included a $10 million signing bonus.

  94. Aryan brotherhood . . . now that is rich. What does that make you, a Black Panther. Boo!

    First, the Eagles went 10-6 last year, okay. That must make me a racist for pointing that out!

    Second, I didn’t correct Boney on his factual errors because I saw that you had already done a fine job of doing that yourself.

    Third, after I read this comment from you, it was hard to take anything else you wrote seriously:

    Peyton has never received the same level of criticism or hate that McNabb has gotten despite more failures. That’s a fact.

    Peyton was the most abused player in the league before he won his ring. Ever read a Bill Simmons column? And they have both “failed” plenty: now, Peyton has a ring, McNabb doesn’t (and never will). Big difference.

  95. GMP-

    The problem is two-fold.

    McNabb has never played well with a chip on his shoulder. He always plays much better when he has all the support in the world. But he gets himself worked up over moves that the team makes and shows an extreme sensitivity problem for a position where that doesn’t really work.

    The team has never done a terrific job of giving him the pieces. It would be nice if they had that all out support for him, but he’s gone down so much in his career that it’s been proven that they need contingency plans. The TO experiment didn’t really work and there aren’t that many big time WR’s out there. They tend to never hit FA. The weird thing is that the west coast offense operates much better with big receivers and instead they have Kevin Curtis and other smurfs.

    The jury has to be out on the Kevin Kolb move. It isn’t a lot different then the Jason Campbell move.

    You have to consider the Eagles generally only draft for the future, and hardly for the present. If they didn’t operate that way, then it’s possible McNabb wouldn’t have had the quality defenses and o-lines he’s had throughout the prime of his career.

    They will never know if those picks would have been better served surrounding McNabb with offensive weapons.

  96. Peyton was the most abused player in the league before he won his ring.

    ^^^^^This shows that there is NO way we are watching the same stuff on TV^^^^^

  97. “Peyton was the most abused player in the league before he won his ring. Ever read a Bill Simmons column? And they have both “failed” plenty: now, Peyton has a ring, McNabb doesn’t (and never will). Big difference.”

    Nonsense… for years Peyton (rightfully so) has been labled the best QB in the game. The only thing anyone’s ever criticized him for was his inablilty to win the Big Game (from Tenn to Indy). As of last year, no one can ever say that about him again.

    McNabb came under fire and rose to national prominence because of Rush “Oxtcotin” Limbaugh spouting off truly racists remarks about DMac. Ever since then McNabb has been viewed as one of the ‘good guys’ in the NFL. Again now that he’s saying what is true, the corny term ‘race card’ gets pulled and everyone basically is throwing him under the proverbial bus.

    Philly fans, [Silky Johnson voice] what can I say about Philly fans that hasn’t already been said about Ahfganastan, they look bombed out and depleated [/Silky Johnson voice] They’re getting everything they deserve for cheering Michael Irvin as he laid motionless on that green painted concrete slab of a field they played in… I only hope Dmac gets outta there and plays for a reputable team/town

  98. Because the media is jumping all over this thing by questioning the Pats’ success over the years and the fact that NE is pretty much “America’s Team,” that suggests that this cheating thing is that big of a deal. Otherwise, they’d be given a pass and this thing would die down quickly – because the media is usually on the Pat’s nuts. If it wasn’t that big, the media would be willing to give them a pass.

    If my memory serves me correct, each of the Pats’ Super Bowl victories were by only three points. So although they are a great team and arguably a mini-dinasty, none of these Super Bowl wins were that convincing. With that said, their success SHOULD be questioned.

    From what I have heard, there are other allegations that the NFL is investigating. No one knows for sure if everyone cheats – at least to this extent. That’s hearsay. There should be a freakin’ * by all of New England’s championships!

  99. origin…
    you nailed Andy Reid and why he can’t win the big one. He has no respect for the running game and never has. I think it’s remarkable that he has done as well as he has.

  100. There’s nothing wrong with what McNabb said – it’s a no-brainer. And it is not the wrong time – it’s never the wrong time to tell the truth. He can say whatever he wants, whenever he wants. Because there are quite a few more African American QBs in the NFL than there was 10 years ago, does not mean they are treated fairly. I’m glad McNabb said what he did, because people sometimes need to be reminded. Blacks are criticized more in any profession as compared to their White counterparts. If someone beleives racism is not alive and kicking in Amerikkka, please familirize yourself with the Jena 6.

  101. Friedman,

    The fact that you equate the Black Panthers with the Aryan Brotherhood is proof positive of how the images of black people in this country have skewed.

    The Black Panthers, at no time, were a hate group, committed hate crimes or preached racial superiority.

    Ever.

    But, you wouldn’t no that cause you think that the race card is the only card black people know how to deal.

  102. This whole situation with McNabb can be compared to Carson Palmer last year.

    Palmer was coming off a serious knee injury. Did anyone question whether the game had passed him by when he failed to light things up in the season?

    No, the said that he wasn’t fully recovered from his injury and he needed more time. They told the other players to step things up.

    McNabb is much older than Palmer, but the fact remains to jump all over him for the team’s struggles, when the defense is slipping a little bit and he still lacks credible offensive weapons is ridiculous. He is being asked to carry the load while recovering from a serious injury. Palmer was not asked to do that.

  103. I agree with Kwelli, even though I’m not sure I agree with McNabb saying it. I know what he said to be true, but I think he’s deflecting deserved criticism because he’s a bit sensitive to it (professional criticism) and has always seemed to be.

    That’s where I think the issue with timing comes up at all.

    No problem with him saying it, but the storm it brings should have been expected.

  104. Just to clarify, I’m not saying the storm is okay. But simply to be expected.

    It would of course be nice to see his comments turn into a legit discussion within the MSM of the truth of his statement. But all it’s going to do is make them focus even more so on the balls he’s been throwing this year.

  105. Yes, the storm is definitely to be expected. I haven’t actually heard the interview, so he may indeed be trying to deflect. But I hear he did the interview with James Brown and usually brothers feel more comfortable opening up to each other, and that maybe why he said it. As an African American, growing up I was always told that we had to be better at what we do than others and just MAYBE we will get opportunities. It’s the same for any profession.

    I was listening the ESPN Radio today (The Herd), and the host had the audacity to turn it around and say White QBs are scrutinized more than Black QBs. It was like he was on some “reverse racism,” “angry White man” stuff. It was totally ridiculous.

  106. Kweli, isn’t that the exact argument Rush made?

    It’s funny how public opinion can change in a few years. People like to pretend that everybody thought Rush was an idiot when he said it, but it’s clear that a whole bunch of people thought that way.

  107. I feel you man the the sh$t ain’t right what the media is doing to Mcnabb. And I said on here months ago that the media doesn’t love him as much as folks think. He is a black QB plain and simple. And they will never respect him as much as they would his white counterpart.

    But I have to give it up to him…………as much as we get on these black athletes about speaking up about stuff. Mcnabb has atleast spoke up somewhat when it has come to being a target and being a black QB. If you don’t believe me. Then look up what he said when that Fool Rush attacked him………when that fool from the NAACP attacked him.

    I remeber he stated that he felt that their were owners who would not start Black QBs and fans who didn’t want them on his team. He also stated that the reason he carries himself the way that he does is so it doesn’t hurt the next brothas at QB coming along down the pipeline.

    (I for one believe that if these black QBs don’t do well on their teams then there won’t be another brotha to take their place for many years.)

  108. #15 Friedman “Joey Harrington, Rex Grossmann, Peyton Manning, (before his Super Bowl), Eli Manning, Dan Marino, Steve Young (before his Super Bowl), Chad Pennington, Tim Couch, Ryan Leaf and a host of others would like to have a word with you.

    Don’t these people ever get tired of using the race card? Don’t they know how foolish it makes them sound?”

    You cannot be serious. Steve Young, Dan Marino and Peyton Manning are or will be in Mannings case Hall of Fame quarterbacks. To lump them with the other flotsam and jetsam is absurd. If I don’t know better, I would think you have an agenda.

  109. I guess the interview was from before last night’s game, so not neccessarily deflection. Definitely speaking the truth.
    ————————————————————-
    Origin-

    I don’t doubt that some owners and fans wouldn’t want a black Qb, but in towns where black Qb’s are some have failed before hand.

    Wash: Jason Campbell/Tony Banks
    Jax: David Garrard/Byron Leftwich
    Minn: Tavaris Jackson/Daunte Culpepper
    Balt: Steve McNair/Tony Banks
    Oak: JaMarcus Russell/Aaron Brooks

    I could probably go on. We can’t say black Qb’s get rushed out of town and then not say those above failed. I think many organizations don’t care about the color of the Qb’s skin. It’s basically the easiest position to be called a failure at. However, there are certainly organization for whatever reason who have never handed it over to a black Qb or never had one on the roster in the first place. Places that come to mind: GB, Denver, KC, SD

    I can’t think of any of those teams ever having one on the roster, but I could be forgetting someone.

  110. I hear you cornelius but places or teams like the titans had players like moon and Mcnair who were successful. Philly had cunningham and Mcnabb……..Min has Moon, Cunnigham and Culpepper and washington had Doug Williams. None of these QBs failed They led their teams to the Superbowl, NFC championship game and multiple playoff games.

    When I mean fail I mean black QBs who either were bust or left their teams on a bad note got suspended was on drugs……so forth so on.

    When brothas mess up like that ain’t another brotha getting a chance for a long time. Also if the fans base didn’t like him ain’t another brotha getting a chance for a long time.

    Hey but we shall see.

    Lets see how long it takes ATL to draft a black QB high in the 1st 2 or 3 rounds. Lets see the next time a black QB is given a chance to start in ATL.

    Recently one of the writers a brotha from teh detroit free press was on the radio here in Dallas and basically said the same thing when it came to black QBs.

    But hey lets just wait and see.

  111. http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/bostonblog

    I would advise everyone to read Simmons column and substitute Michael Vick and dogfighting for Bill Belichek and cheating.

    It’s great fun.

  112. F#$k simmons he is a crackhead and a ignorant good ole boy.

    Also F^%k ESP N Crap and the garbage they spew…………that is all!!!

  113. Matter fact the writer from the detriot free press that I am talking about is Rob Parker.
    He spoke on the black QB supject with Roger B Brown here in Dallas.

  114. Origin-

    I know what you’re saying, but I don’t think it’s as bad as that.

    ATL just signed Leftwich today. Losing cures a lot problems one may have with black Qb’s fast.

    I guess on the other hand, I was a bit suprised when I heard stories of many Skins fans leaving after the game last night and being called the n-word on the way out. Others weighed in to seeing this happen all the time there. I’ve never seen that happen at a Washington game. I used to sit up top at RFK in an all blue-collar white guy section where the beer flowed like water and I never once heard any racial epithats. There were many opportunities with wagers going wrong, but I never saw it. I thought Philly was better than that, but I guess I now know.

  115. Also did anyone see how good host on ESPN went out of their way to feel so sorry for Andy Reid and them drug dealing, dope smoking, gun carrying thug @ss sons of his!!!

    They might as well had a violin playing. I swear hearing about Andy Reid and them poor thugs made me cry. I haven’t cried like that since I saw Bambi’s momma and Old Yeller die!!!

  116. Nope Philly got their good ole boys just like any other city.

    Ignorant fools. But hey that won’t ever get covered on ESPN. Remember how the Jazz fans were calling BAron Davis and Steven Jackson N$%#ers in the playoffs last year.

    Remember there is no racism in sports. Those people were just joking and having good ole fun.

    Just like the fine people who were threatening to kill the RB at bosie state for marrying his white girlfriend. Just having a little fun………..no need to pull the race card.

    But they sure have no problem playing the bigot card………..all day everyday.

  117. Origin,
    I saw that madness…they kept referring to those grown azz men as “kids” and just pouring on the sympathy syrup for Andy Reid…how the team was his family and he needed them at this time and yada, yada, yada…..it was enough to make one vomit.

  118. I know Miranda them poor little rich kids. After we march on Jena this Thursday we need to march on Philly for them little dope dealers.

  119. Can we move on to more pressing matters now . . . like Isiah Thomas’ recent comments re: the lovely term “bitches”?

    I can’t wait to hear the apologists defend this one . . .

  120. Sorry Friedman, you don’t set the agenda here. Other than to bait, you don’t care about what Isiah said. The court/jury will sort it out. Btw, I thought you were still sitting shiva for Nicole and Ron. You might be close to setting a record. Should I call the press?

  121. I can’t wait to hear Bill Rhoden’s response to McNabb’s comments…hell, I think they’re the same one from the book.

  122. I thought this thread was about “patriot-gate”?

  123. okay did anyone see the dude impersonating Chris Russo on Youtube??? absolutely spot on and hilarious… (just brining a little levity to the thread…

    Original Chris Russo rant about Pacman Jones:

    Impersonation:

  124. At this immediate moment, the only reason Mr. Charlie and his Merry (White Hooded) Band aren’t castigating McNabb even more virulently is because they would have to put “F*** that N***** O.J.” on pause for a minute, and well, that just can’t happen right now.
    If you really want to get a good slice of good-ole boyisms (i.e., “race-baiter,” “double murdering N*****,” “dog-killing thug,” etc.), check out my alma mater’s forum at tidesports.com. No, you will not find compelling discourse, nor any truly intellectual thought, but you will find Angry White Males being straight up, unapologetic, unabashed racist assholes. Of course, they complain that the national media simply has it out for them, and is always portraying them in a negative light because they’re jealous of Bama football. Maybe so, but they’re still assholes.

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