Crazy Talk

Doug Gottlieb subbed for Colin Cowherd today. I guess the job requires a particularly high ratio of loud opinion to actual facts.

In a rant about Vick and other matters, Gottlieb attacked ill-informed athletes spouting ill-informed opinions about the Vick case. Among the people Gottlieb picked on was Stephon Marbury, whose comments about Vick earlier this week made him a favorite whipping boy on sports talk radio yesterday (as dwil noted would happen).

As Dwil wrote yesterday, Marbury compared dogfighting to deer hunting, suggesting that the former was a sport, just behind closed doors.

Gottlieb went after Marbury’s comments as ‘crazy talk’ and asserted that Marbury said what he said out of complete ignorance concerning the case. Ignorance because, according to Gottlieb, the gambling aspects of the case are not the real issue, nor is the dog-fighting itself – its “sporting” aspects, what has Vick in so much trouble.

Instead, according to Gottlieb, it was the cruelty with which the dogs were disposed of if they underperformed, that was the key legal point in the case. Marbury’s comments, according to Gottlieb, show that he was completely ignorant of the gruesome way in which Vick and his accomplices are said to have killed the dogs.

A couple of comments here. In the ten minutes that I heard Gottlieb, he harped almost constantly on other people’s ignorance, particularly mocking the sports discourse for allowing ill-informed athletes to spout ill-informed opinions.

Which begs the question: Did Gottlieb see any irony in this?

Sidebar: in the midst of his rant, Gottlieb spouted sports talk’s favorite new urban legend – that Jesse Jackson came to Durham during the height of the Duke Lacrosse case. I can find no evidence that he did so. Ditto for Sharpton).

In any event, the first point is that, concerning the Vick case, Gottlieb’s dead wrong from a legal standpoint. The indictment against Vick is for participating in a conspiracy in aid of an unlawful “animal fighting venture.” There is sensational material in the indictment – the notorious means by which dogs were executed if they failed to perform in test fights. And, I am told, those means could influence the judge when he sentences Vick. But, from a legal standpoint, it appears to scarcely matter whether the test dogs were drowned, electrocuted, or put out of their misery in some more “humane” way. The conspiracy for which Vick is being charged is a conspiracy to promote an illegal operation. Furthermore, as many commentators have noted in the past few days, it’s precisely the gambling aspects of the operation that could prove most difficult for Vick to overcome whenever it is that he applies for re-instatement with the NFL, which he will presumably do after the completion of his sentence and whatever suspension follows that.

It’s a favorite sport of many sports talking heads to mock athletes – especially African American ones – for their diction, their style of communication and, as in this case, their apparent ignorance. Do I think Gottlieb’s consciously hitting Marbury because he’s Black? No, I don’t. It’s just a very common dynamic. Last night, on FOX sports radio, Andrew Siciliano also bashed Marbury, and took pains to read out as slowly and mockingly as he could, Marbury’s words, dwelling for effect on the “you know” verbal pause in Marbury’s comments, and also making much of the fact that Marbury apparently incorrectly pluralized “deers.”

But, Gottlieb’s accusation of ignorance is itself confused. Marbury may not know about the graphic details in the indictment, though given how widely reported they are, I suspect he does know. And, one may disagree with Marbury comparing deer hunting to dog fighting, but the comparison itself is not irrelevant to the conversation, given that the dog-fighting itself is the central reason that Vick is in hot water.

In addition to mocking Marbury’s grammar and his supposed ignorance of the case, the most common criticism of Marbury was his apparent failure to grasp the elementary fact that deer hunting is legal while dog-fighting is illegal. But, let’s back up a minute here. I have heard it said a thousand times in the past few weeks, whether in relation to Barry Bonds or Michael Vick, that trotting out the line “innocent until proven guilty” is a bogus line, and is besides the point. Why? Because in the “court of public opinion” we don’t need to wait for legal verdicts to form judgments. We can form our own opinions, based on common sense and whatever else we rely upon to form our views of particular matters. Bottom line: sports talking heads don’t need to consult the law before they begin fulminatng. Gottlieb himself has, in the past, made the point emphatically in relation to steroids and baseball players.

And, that’s fine. But, if it’s legitimate for sports talk people to spout judgments irrespective of whether the legal process has revealed its truth, why, all of a sudden, have so many of the same sports people turned into officers of the court in attacking Marbury? Yes, as a factual legal matter, deer hunting is legal, and dog-fighting is illegal. And, of course, most of us can agree that the details in the Vick case are stomach-turning. But, is it really out of bounds to wonder out loud why some forms of killing animals for sport are OK, while others subject an individual to vilification? As many readers of TSF have pointed out, we in America have a highly idiosyncratic view of animal cruelty. Read up on how we get veal, for example. Siciliano tried to defend deer hunting last night by saying that people do it for food. But, that’s a joke. Yes, some people eat venison. But, I am willing to wager (metaphorically speaking, of course) that most deer killed by hunters don’t end up in their stomachs. (and check out these provocative remarks last month from Max Kellerman. Scroll down the post for the link). In other words, it’s a not entirely unreasonable philosophical question to raise – why is killing animals for sport OK in some contexts and not others? And, many of you may have good answers to that question. But, is Marbury really an idiot for asking that out loud?

Marbury’s an odd guy and he often says odd things. But, call me crazy – I don’t see his remarks the other day as so outlandish. The ridicule to which he was subjected has more to do, in my view, with a sports talk culture that, for all its populist tone, loves to condescend, to make itself feel superior to professional athletes because some athletes don’t always express themselves so coherently. Gottlieb’s attack was itself ill-informed and Siciliano’s was just cheap and gratuitous (consistent with the culture of snark apparently favored by the target demogrpahic).

Furthermore, as I’ve written previously, it is an on-going source of irritation to me that Marbury, who’s shown more of a social conscience than 99% of all athletes (and sports media), is an ongoing source of ridicule, tempered nary at all by any respect for what he’s tried to do off the court.

I’m not here to defend the substance of Marbury’s comments. They’re a matter for debate. But, the smugness of much of sports media – its unearned self-righteous indignation and condescension is reaching frankly nauseating extremes.  And, its parasitic relationship to bad news is no less so. The last six weeks have been a dream come true for all those talking heads who, at the beginning of July, were bemoaning how little happens on the sports calendar before football starts.

I’ll give credit to Gottlieb for acknowledging one important truth yesterday: that in his line of work, mocking athletes for speaking up on controversial issues is great for business.

48 Responses to “Crazy Talk”

  1. I don’t hunt by I work with a lot of hunters. What people don’t realize is that deers often do not die on the spot. Often they are mortally wounded, and flee the scene. The hunter has to come down out of his stand and track the wounded animal. Sometimes he catches up with it and has to put it down. Sometimes he finds the deer laying dead. It’s not really that humane to bleed to death after getting hit with a bow or buckshot.

    Hunting has been given a pass because it’s legal, but is it moral? I don’t care one way or the other about hunting or dogfighting. I just think the moral relativism is funny.

  2. The increasing hostility these radio jocks show toward athletes, especially those of color, is becoming unbearable. It seems that the day Tony Kornheiser left, espn radio has become the worst offender. I knew the jig was up when the guy they replaced him with was Colin Cowheard, who is just like all the other uninformed shlockmeisters who can barely hide their utter disdain for not only athletes but for the morons who call in to cosign for the ridiculous yet damaging things they say.

  3. You are killing a guy for editorializing, and not for speaking from fact. Any one of us can get a radio show and go on and spout off half truths for the sake of trying to draw an audience. Doug Gottlieb is a douchebag, who doesn’t even know that much about sports. He should be lucky he even has a job at ESPN, he shouldn’t be anything more than a contributor to a local newspaper as a beat writer.

    Sure, we all know what Vick is going to plead to. We all know word for word what he is going to plead to, conspiracy to take part in an “unlawful animal venture” or something to that nature. The thing is, the details of the indictment will not go unnoticed because they were released to the public and to the press and that’s what simple minds like Gottlieb are always going to allude(sp?) to in their editorials… it’s the gruesome nature of the indictment that makes it so appealing to ALL americans (white and black).

    The whole point of your column here basically is to call out a guy who is taking part in a topical radio program who has offered up opinions on the case. It’s wrong, sure. But it’s not like he was reporting everything as if he was reporting for the Associated Press. He was completely editorializiing everything he said, and much like the opinions expressed on this site, he has a right to do it. He’s not “right” in the eyes of the truth seekers, but his whole “schtick” is to be “cutting edge” and “goofy” when really he’s just an idiot that speaks out of his ass half the time.

    To consider Gottlieb an important part of the mainstream “sports” media is laughable. Gottlieb is utterly useless when it comes to live tapings of him on “1st and 10″, or on his weekend radio program or any other program for which he sits in on.

    On the topic of hunting deer (since that seems to be the #1 thing brought up to compare to dog fighting), it’s not humane to kill deer. But the obvious things that makes deer hunting different than dog fighting is the deer aren’t being intentionally bred to be hunted, it is legal to hunt deer while breeding dogs intentionally to fight is against the law, and fighting dogs is against the law. We all know how the deer die, but in some localities deer hunting is done as a means to control overpopulation… you know, so people don’t hit them with their cars? I’m sure there are more reasons why it’s legal, and I don’t really care all too much about killing a deer or a dog… one is legal and one is not so if I were to do either, I’d do the legal one.

    Run out a whole history of the United States and dog fighting like T3 did in the last post… you’ll still find in there that even though it was made a felony “recently” doesn’t mean it’s any less of a crime since illegal has always meant “against the rules”.

    Where was all this chatter about cruelty to animals and dog fighting BEFORE Vick got indicted on these charges? Nobody cared about dog fighting then. We read about Vick’s teammate killing a dog and Qyntel Woods fought dogs… it wasn’t nearly as big in the spotlight as it is now. Now that it’s been dragged out into the light for everyone to see, as usual half the people are disgusted and want the perpetrator(sp?) thrown in jail and half the people want to compare it to killing deer… jesus christ

  4. Boney,

    So your point is that idiots like Gottlieb should be allowed to say whatever they want and go unchecked, because its their OPINION buuuut Marbury should be ridiculed for his opinion?

    I’m sorry I dint understand that logic. What I do know is that athletes, Black athletes specifically and uber rich Black athletes face scorn like no one else. I love the fact that you use the ‘thinning the herd so I don’t crash my car’ argument to justify deer hunting, when, in fact, the majority of places where deer populations is problematic are the same places where man has settled and developed to get away from the city and ‘closer to nature’. “Yea I moved the the mountains but the deer, raccoons, bears, skunks etc have to go because their destroying MY WAY OF LIFE”. I know that arguemnet all to well.

    But back to Marbury, I wish that he and other Black athletes boycott the MSM. Grant no interviews to anyone… therefore the herd Gottlieb (ill-informed), Albom (liar), Lupica (vindictive), Whitlock (simple) etc. can be thinned like the deer.

  5. Typical radio nonsense. It wouldn’t be so bad if idiot America didn’t drink it up like it was that famed “purple stuff.” Its angry white man syndrome if you ask me. I guess they feeled “attacked”….attacked by Muslims, illegal immigrants, thugs, etc., etc., etc. Just sad.

    A lot of times I wish i could go back to the old days where the only sports I consumed were games, box scores, and standings. Its a sad world out there.

  6. “But the obvious things that makes deer hunting different than dog fighting is the deer aren’t being intentionally bred to be hunted,”

    If they were, would that make deer hunting as bad as dogfighting from a moral perspective? My friend’s uncle owns a private hunting reserve. The deer on that reserve are alive for the express purpose of being hunted. There is no hunting to curb overpopulation. Is my friend’s uncle as bad as a person who fights dogs?

  7. Aone, come to the suburbs of DC and drive in the car with me… specifically through Fairfax and Loudoun Counties where I’ve lived all my life and you’ll see what I’m talking about.

    I’m sure Marbury has said many things to his friends or really anyone that would listen his opinions on many topics. Marbury is allowed to say what he wants, you’ll see I didn’t kill Marbury like you probably think I did.

    Gottlieb is a horse’s ass… and if you want to take a horse’s ass words as gospel, fine by me. It’s hard to even try to justify anything Gottlieb says because he’s so overmatched in all categories of his basic knowledge of sports that all he offers is opinion, much like most of us have done on this topic. Everyone has an opinion, and everyone has a right to their opinion. Just because some of the talking heads have a mic in front of them doesn’t make them wrong because we don’t have mics in front of us to rebut their opinions.

    Diallo, are those deer bred to live in the captivity they’re in? If so, then I agree with you on that being inhumane. If the jurisdiction your friend’s uncle lives in allows for a hunting season in order to control overpopulation, then it’s completely legal (not necessarily morally right) to do what he’s doing.

  8. Diallo…

    your friend’s dad is a BUSINESS man that contributes to commerce in America. He is a HERO that keeps AMERICANS working. He’s the guy that Chevy and John Melencamp refer to when they sing “this is OUR country”… he’s a good guy that keeps AK-47′s and assault weapons legal for hunting deer… He’s that guy…

    MV7 is a good for nothing n—-r that fights defenseless dogs…

    You do see the differece, right?

  9. Doug Gottleib is mocking folk???

    THIS Doug Gottleib???

    riginally hailing from Tustin, California, Gottlieb was the Orange County Player of the Year in 1995. Gottlieb was recruited by Notre Dame, and was the starting point guard for Notre Dame during the 1995-1996 college basketball season. He started all but four games for Notre Dame during that season. However during Gottlieb’s freshman year at Notre Dame, he stole credit cards from a roommate and fraudulently charged over $900 to those cards. Subsequently, he was kicked off the Notre Dame basketball team and eventually convicted of fraud.

    They let this dude make a living talking about the morals of ANYONE????

  10. I want to say that Jweiler makes some of the best arguments I read on the web. You do a great job of pointing out the lack of logic in most of the statements that come from the media.

  11. yeah Aone… act ignorant with your words, but if your words are anything like the man, then you truly are as ignorant as Gottlieb and the rest

  12. Jweiler’s piece could have easily applied to ESPN/ABC, NBC, or CBS there is really not much of a difference between the major media outlets and sports radio. The majority of mainstream sports media has turned towards a “shock and awe” style that is all surface and little substance.

    The larger issue is what sports journalism has become and that is a profession of cowards and bottom-feeders, who make a living by simply cutting-down, mocking, and attacking professional athletes. The job requirements seem to be: (1) an ability to talk (no writing skills necessary); (2) must be loud, angry, and sanctimonious; (3) no background in sports needed whatsoever; and (4) never challenge the “League”, team front offices, team owners, and coaches, unless the coaches are Black or Latino. Basically, there is no accountability for any of these commentators and they can say whatever they want without any repercussions.

    Last fall, on Sunday NFL Live, Tom Jackson suggested that Randy Moss’ teammates give him a “code red”. If Randy Moss said that about Tom Jackson the police would be at Randy’s doorstep and Randy would probably be suspended by the league for violating the personal conduct policy. Mike Dikta and others have called T.O. a scumbag and said he should be given a beating. If in an interview T.O. would have suggested that Ditka be given a beating, T.O. would have been skewered by the sports media echo chamber.

    Like, AP, I too want to go back to the days of consuming only box scores, standings, and actual sporting events.

  13. Boney,

    I suppose you missed the sarcasm in that post. However, there is some truth to what I said in that Vick and dogfighting in general has been seen as an urban (code word for Black) problem, when it isnt. It’s a PROBLEM that crosses racial, economic, geographic and class lines. However, litesting to clowns like Gottlieb you’d never guess that. Just like when watching ‘hunters’ hunt on ranges no one takes into account the feeling of a ‘poor defenseless’ deer.

    I am a dog owner and lover and I am repulsed by dog fighting (I can’t even watch any exposes on the topic) but I DO know that Vick isnt some GODFATHER like figure in dogfighting and I DO know that this will all go away on Sept 8th when the reg season kicks off and the talking heads begin bashing Harrington.

  14. Its angry white man syndrome if you ask me. I guess they feeled “attacked”….attacked by Muslims, illegal immigrants, thugs, etc., etc., etc. Just sad.

    Um, what? Care to explain? Attacked by Muslims . . . ha, you can’t be serious. Take the blinders off, buddy.

  15. Hey guys, guess what!! Gotlieb is racist right. He makes fun of black people’s diction and he should be fired like Imus right? Who’s starting the uproar, I say we let the “captain” at it, go MIZZO. Lead the troops and “keep ya head up”. Let’s go HYPOCRIZZO. hahaha

  16. Aone, I never supported deer hunting as a moral thing. I supported it as a “law abiding way of killing animals” kind of thing… notice a difference?

    This case is what it is because dog fighting is illegal… no matter how you want to sensationalize it, it’s still illegal. Dog fighting to me is not “urban” as you and others want to claim it to be…. I have relatives that live in GA that have been to dog fights and have thrown cash on dog fight… it doesn’t make it any less illegal.

    You know why Vick is being dragged through the mud on this case? Because somebody knew something, which lead to a sting operation being placed on the whole operation that he was indicted to have had. It’s not just some random dude walked in a police station and said (while scratching his ass) “Uh yeah, Michael Vick sucked on my fantasy team last year so…I saw him fighting dogs” and then police went and got him. The local government had been tipped off that something illegal may have been happening…

  17. Boney,

    I guess my point is that people use legality as a rationale when it’s convenient and morality when it’s convenient, irrespective of the argument. The whole Vick affair is a series of shifting rationales, on both sides.

    Aone

    I don’t think he has an AK-47, but I’m sure he has 2 or 3 Winchesters:)

  18. I agree Diallo.

    All I’m saying, and I’ve said this all along, dog fighting is illegal while deer hunting isn’t.

    The laws may be made based on morale, but laws are laws. What we see on the TV is different than what goes on in the court. What we see on TV is ridiculous people from PETA protesting, when like everyone has said, they should be protesting a KFC chicken plant or a butcher shop if they really wanted to be for animal rights.

  19. Yo, I see what you’re saying Boney. I don’t agree, but I see the gist of your comments.

    I think the main problem is that Doug is spewing his ill-informed nonsense to a general public that does not possess the necessary filters to place it in the nonsense category.

    These same people then repeat what Doug has said to other people, and it spreads like AIDS.

    Which in turn creates the current racial climate we live in. For example, Bill.

    Got to love him.

  20. Okay, so Diallo, Boney and I agree on this subject (cheers) we all took different approaches to get there. The morality and the rationale of cruelty to animals should be examined because IMO dogs are no better than deer (no matter how many of my plants and bushes they eat)

  21. How about a cheer for rational discourse! lol

  22. Allen, we don’t have to see Doug’s point…it was an editorial and he’s useless to any smart thinking human being.

    yeah Aone… we all do agree. Animals are animals, always have been and always will be.

  23. PETA protests at everything. KFC, Deer Hunting, Fur, – you name it they’re against it.

    They’re probably the people with the purest motives in going after Vick in the sense that they would go after anybody doing anything to animals (and have). The difference is now all the mainstream media are giving them a much wider audience, normally they make fun of them.

    I’m not saying I agree with them but I just don’t think their actions stem from the fact that Vick is black.

  24. Looking for the awareness of acute ironies on sports radio is like looking for some reason among George W’s policies. It just ain’t there.

  25. Allen, #19, you crack me up! I would just add that while I agree that Gottlieb is an ass who’s obviously looking desperately for something to say that will get him noticed, not many people listen to him. The far greater problem, which has been mentioned in many posts here, is people that do have a large following – and use it to spew nonsense – the O’Reillys, Limbaughs and Hannitys of the world.

    Josh, #23, I agree totally.

  26. Ap @ 5-I hear ya on that bruddah. It’s what I do enjoy-it can be painful-but I know I’m gonna get some truth over here at TSF. I wish that even 1/3 of fans who read sports blogs here in this country read this blog……well, there might be a lot of trolls but still, they might learn. But this blog cuts through the BS like a knife thru butter. And the knife is very hot.

  27. In the area where I live, people legally hunt bears with teams of dogs. The dogs used for this activity are not kept as “pets,” and they are not walked or well cared for. Dogs that do not display suitable hunting talent are killed–they are usually shot, but sometimes they may be drowned.

    I do not support Vick or other dog fighters (nor am I a vegetarian). But hopefully this incident will enable us to examine our hypocrisy and look at other, tolerated, legal forms of animal exploitation that may be equally cruel.

    I am sure that many of the pundits who are shocked by Vick’s behavior hold stock in industrial agriculture enterprises that routinely torture animals.

  28. Mark @ 25: you can say that not many listen to him, but quite a few do……and the fact that he spews largely ignorant nonsense but yet has a very prominent platform like ESPN points out the paradox in treating folks. Starbury says something and Gottlieb gets to yack about it, no accountability, and unfortunately, there are plenty of ignorant people out there just looking to lap that ignorance up. The point of the posters is that it is somewhat hypocritical when a knucklehead like Gottlieb has a prominent platform (why?) and yet Starbury is the one who is hammered for misunderstood and/or misrepresented statements.

  29. Josh is right. PETA will protest against anybody and will do anything for media attenton for their protests. Typically they are laughed off as kooks. As someone who has covered several PETA protests I know this.

  30. TC #28, I know, but as Boney has stated, Gottlieb has been given a platform(why? now there’s another whole discussion) to editorialize. Just like all the other talking heads, in and out of sports. Unfortunately, I think it’s just reflective of our culture today – reality television, internet posts, talk radio…..the prevailing attitude seems to be that anyone’s opinion is worth blathering about, with little or no credentials of expertise required at all. Quite sad.

  31. The self righteous often speak about legalities and laws created by man to suit his ever shifting purpose, as if some where addendum to the mythical 10 commandment.

    Was it not a short time ago that “knee-grows” was forbidden to be “edumacated” by legal decree?

    Was it not sometime ago that the highly melenated and those less so where forbidden to marry?

    From my experience, he/she who has the gun makes the rules!

    Spare me the talk about the legality of deer hunting versus the illegality of dog fighting.

    Until America Inc. amends the mission statement (constitution) which states that a “knee-grow” is 3/5th a human being, then I will MAY consider thinking about considering to listen to you.

    And between us, do zoophiles get charged with animal cruelty if caught in the act? You may ask wtf? .. but I figure I should throw out some more random shit, like some other posters seem to enjoy doing.

  32. i have known a few deer hunters none of them cared that much about the meat. it was the kill that excited them.

  33. Sankofa:

    I am ROTFLMBAO…#31 and I’m done.

  34. Good analysis.

    “deer hunting is legal, and dog-fighting is illegal”

    Why is this?

    Folks love dogs. I’ve maintained all along that folks were going to underestimate the power of the pet lobby.

    From a sociological perspective, this is a nice case for the social construction of a problem. I’ve butchered pigs, sheep, and cows. And I did it in the boonies of SA where folks still “stuck” pigs until they bled out. There is nothing dignified about carving out organs and chopping off heads. But, hey, folks love bacon. What are you going to do?

    One thing that I would like to add to the debate is something that sociologists call the “Thomas theorem”: “If [people] define situations as real, they are real in their consequences.”

    Is it logical to condemn dog killing and not the killing of deer, duck, quail, gator, moose, etc.? Not really. But, that doesn’t mean you can change social norms over night.

  35. Sankofa, my god, you are a real treat: the Black Panther Party is alive and well, I see! Some scary shit there. If you hate America so much, why don’t you . . . ah, you’ve got no answer for it, so I shouldn’t even bother asking. You have no answer. Just seething.

  36. ahm gonna get yuh sucka!

  37. “The far greater problem, which has been mentioned in many posts here, is people that do have a large following – and use it to spew nonsense – the O’Reillys, Limbaughs and Hannitys of the world.”

    Yes. And the same goes for Keith Olberman, Chris Matthews and Bill Maher. Bastards! They are all crazy!

  38. LOL Elliot. sounds like you’re lumping Matthews in with the left side of commentators – which is pretty funny, not to mention inaccurate. And if you really think that Olberman and Maher are crazy, I’m assuming you’re one of the 25% that still favors Bush.

  39. Mark

    Thanks for jumping on Chris Matthews – here’s a link to just a sample of his many fawning statements about President Bush over the years:

    http://mediamatters.org/items/200512230005

    With “liberals” like Matthews, one scarcely needs conservatives.

  40. Dan LeBatard’s doing an admirable job today pairing with douche Kay

  41. Mark,

    You know what they say about assuming! If you don’t see the obvious similarities b/w Hannity and Limbaugh on one side and Olberman and Maher on the other, then you must be part of the crowd that voted in the new Congress who has record low approval ratings.

    Each of these men throw bombs regularly to ignite their listeners. Limbaugh and Hannity are the Republican version of the Liberal Olberman and Maher.

    That is all I’m saying.

  42. “But, the smugness of much of sports media – its unearned self-righteous indignation and condescension is reaching frankly nauseating extremes. And, its parasitic relationship to bad news is no less so.”

    J, this passage sums it all up perfectly. And the cherry-picking between courts and “court of public opinion” is also nauseating. Also can’t “court of public opinion” be synonomous with “mob rule”?

  43. “But the obvious things that makes deer hunting different than dog fighting is the deer aren’t being intentionally bred to be hunted,”

    Oh really………boney you sound like the rest of these good ole boys. Do you know there are many white folks in the south that have tons of land. I even went to college with a lot of these folks. They actually breed dear and let them loose on their property so that the can go and hunt them.

    I hate to break your heart but brett the great hope farve is known to do this. If you don’t believe me I can take you to his property (over 50 acres)in hattiesburg MS. I know for a fact thats what he does.

  44. Who has killed more Vick or Peta…………………..???

    F Peta……..http://www.petakillsanimals.com/vick_press_release.cfm

  45. Answer: Vick does it to be cruel. Peta has no other choice sometimes. I am sure no one wants to euthanize Vick’s dogs either. Is it their fault, or Mike Vick’s fault they are too dangerous to be adopted?????If there is anything good about the Michael Vick story, it is that there is an emerging increased awareness about animal cruelty and animal fighting. There is so much anger about this issue. If we channel it into a positive direction, hopefully, something good can come of it. However…

    I watched Vick’s public apology with my little son who USED TO wear Michael Vick jerseys to school. It is disturbing to think a certain percentage of the population is honestly going to be swayed by Michael Vick’s “enlightenment” carefully crafted by his overpaid attorneys. Call me a cynic, but I don’t believe a man who has been allegedly torturing animals since childhood coincidentally has a religious epiphany as a result of getting caught and losing his job. I hope I am wrong.

    I think it is a sad commentary that we, as a culture, are using the Vick story to compare “What’s worse?” “What’s worse”, we ask, “carelessly fathering illegitimate children, or dogfighting?”. “Dogfighting or gambling?” “Dogfighting or rape?” “Dogfighting or racism?” “Dogfighting or hateful nationalism?” “Dogfighting or (fill in the blank)….?” The comparisons to dogfighting have been endless.

    Dogfighting is one more piece of evidence our country is in need of a spiritual transformation (please note I said spiritual and not necessarily religious). Animals are sentient beings – they feel pain, and they suffer, just like we do. They are not more important, or less important than human beings, but like human beings, they are important, too.

    Dogfighting pits one dog against another until one of them dies. The survivor gets his flesh torn off, ears ripped off, eyes pulled out, etc., and the reward for being “a winner” is to writhe in pain until the next fight. Enough said. The pictures make my flesh crawl. The losers are tortured, beaten, starved, electrocuted or drowned. For what? Because these poor creatures were unlucky enough to be born a dog!

    Every major faith teaches its followers to be responsible stewards of animals and the Earth. Please help us get the word out that caring for animals, just like caring for people, is an important part of just being a decent person and citizen. If we make this a priority, there will be no more dogfighting horror stories, and no more pointless comparisons of evils. Let us all rise, together, to be better people than we are today, shall we?

    Chaplain Nancy Cronk
    Founder, http://www.AnimalChaplains.com

  46. I’m sure Ms. Cronk is just googling up every blog, forum, article she can find to spam up the message board because she is so moved by this case……yeah, she cares (sarcasm off)…..this is about donations, not dogs.

  47. Origin? Actually I’m not one of them “good ol boys” like you think I might be… if you’d like to make hunting deer and any other animal illegal in your county or state then write your elected officials and explain why.

    Until then, this whole “well if you eat steaks or kill deer but you think killing dogs is wrong then you’re wrong” argument is still weak, and in any of MY arguments I have never said Vick should go to jail for killing anything… I’ve simply said he should go to jail if he’s guilty of committing a crime. Fighting dogs is illegal… the gambling his buddies were involved in was illegal…

    Because… after all… isn’t that what a jail is for? people found guilty in a court of law? Even if you did argue Vick wasn’t guilty in a court of law, the simple fact that he accepted a plea bargain on his one count of conspiracy makes him guilty. No matter how heavy or light one count of conspiracy or many counts sounds, if you say “yes sir, I’m guilty. I know what I did is wrong” then you’re guilty.

  48. Look boney this is what you said.

    “But the obvious things that makes deer hunting different than dog fighting is the deer aren’t being intentionally bred to be hunted,”

    I commented on this item.

    You made a statement that wasn’t true.

    And I nailed you on it.

    I have never said hunting should be illegal…….he11 its as american as stealing land. Why should it be illegal?

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