Athlete’s have constantly been at the forefront of our public, and I believe it’s because we believe that the money we spend on tickets, jersey’s, etc. are paying for the blown-up salaries they receive and therefore we have a right to judge and expect proper behavior.

Maybe this is the just the next step forward. In the past it was automatically assumed in white America that all blacks were criminals and there wasn’t much press beyond that. We never looked at the black man or black criminal for that matter in particular. Now the way it’s looked at is at least getting closer to the individual instead of a culture as a whole. Unfortunately, many people look at the individual and place a stamp on the entire culture.

I look forward to substantive, intellectual debate if I do see a topic that piques my interest again.

I did not intend to drown out any other discussions, such as the one between you and PV.

I would certainly take issue with your “bs filler” characterization, but I don’t want to go down that road again, I think the dead horse has been beaten.

I look forward to another challenge.

That’s not kissing ass Matt, that is fact.

Matt, when you continue to nullify words that are plain as day, people simply become frustrated and tune you out.

PV and I were speaking about some issues that need to be highlighted and that all got lost.

Some of my comments were taken out of context when you stated that I didn’t care why crimes were committed as if I was blindly blaming the accuser. Even when I would make a statement to the contrary there wasn’t any acknowledgement.

I really don’t see where you were coming from. It became counterproductive.

We love the dissent here. There’s nothing greater in my opinion than a healthy debate, but you have to take words at face value or promise is lost within the discussion. I know I personally want to grow here. We have some of the most intellectual conversations and diminishing that positive is just not going to happen. Trust, I can bring it with the best of ‘em, but I have a job to do and trust that it will be done. Engaging in idiosyncratic bull crap is time wasting at best. So let’s keep it real or spend your time on the web some place else. Nothing personal because I would say the same to anyone else no matter who the hell they were.

Our readers click on TSF for substantive information, not bs filler.

I think your LeBatard interview was great, and I hope the Aldridge interview is just as insightful.

I hope that your blog will continue to accept dissenting views, so that you don’t fall into the same circle-jerk mentality of the mainstream.

Your “core readers” need to grow some thicker skin if they were genuinely offended, because nothing that egregious was said by anyone but Paul. Hopefully, they will also realize that name-calling is not a substitute for logic.

PV, I’ve enjoyed the discussion with you and agree with what you’ve pointed out in your last comment.

This is supposed to be a discussion people. That’s how we do it here. Straight up, no chaser.

Keep it grown folk. It’s as simple as that.

The interview with David Aldridge will be posted later on today. Be on your best behavior children

On a side note, Bron Bron in this series has become the upper echelon athlete he was born to be. He’s beginning to dwarf his peers. It’s over for the league.

Who are the “thoughtful people” you refer to? Those who reinforce your own views?

Please learn the meaning of the word reactionary also. Your anger has clearly destroyed your judgment. I’d love for you to point out anything reactionary I said. Go check out some statistics while you’re at. The truth is often unpleasant.

I didn’t just criticize Mizzo’s arguments, I provided solutions. You completely ignored my vouchers solution, or the urgent need for the government to create incentives to address the breakdown of the black family structure.

Talking about personal responsibility may be tired, but it’s the truth. Institutions are not responsible for all of the problems in the black community, I hate to break it you. At some point, people have to look in the mirror. If you disagree with this, then you are either stupid, or copping out.

I agree that this discussion has gone on too long. It’s no longer worth engaging with you, since all you will do is engage in name-calling and copping out by dismissing those who present thoughtful opposing views to your own as “trolls”.

I’ve “implied” nothing. I said what I meant, and I meant what I said. Either you get it, or you don’t (clearly you don’t).

Please understand, I’ve no problem engaging with those who are worthy – and I hate to burst your bubble, but… yall aint it, sorry.

The components of your “arguments” amount to nothing more than the same “white boy backlash” tripe that has long since been discarded by thoughtful people. I know you find it hard to believe, but what you say is overwrought, hackneyed, knee-jerk reactionary garbage. I’d have to go all the way back to… what… freshman year in college? Yeah maybe then I can remember whatever I said to people who believe that “Black athletes commit more crimes than others”(that’s you, Matt), or that strict adherence to an ethic of personal responsibilty solves every structural, socioeconomic issue (that’s you, Jason, from your Dave Zirin comments).

I don’t think so, guys. Your views are elementary, and they don’t have any place nor serve any purpose being debated among thoughtful, educated folk. Why do you think that so many commenters have bailed on this “discussion?” It’s not because we have all fallen prey to some sort of TSF “groupthink,” although I know you’d like to believe that. It’s because you two cheapen the debate among people who frequently disagree with each other, but who also happen to actually care about these issues, even in disagreement.

No, I think its best for you two to continue talking amongst yourselves, reinforcing each other’s diddling viewpoints like a couple of high school cheerleaders.

I can’t think of any reason to continue this discussion, and I can only pray that Mike T. and Dave agree with me.

Respond however you please, I’m done with it.

Dave, Mike T, it’s on you.

Never did I call you childish.

Or wait, maybe I implied it…

Familiarize yourself with the concept of implication. Not all human communication is in the form of explicit statements.

-Matt

sole purpose of arguing for the sake of argument, and/or of constantly creating discord, constantly bickering, challenging everything, all the while relying upon the same set of distorted “facts,” refusing to consider alternatives even after these alternatives have been faithfully stated over and over again

Now if you actually bothered to read my first post from this thread — way up at the top — you will see that I agreed with Mizzo’s feelings about the way Bonds and T.O. are treated in the media. Then I said that Vick, Tank, and Pacman have been accused of some serious crimes and that these issues were worth discussing. And then, finally, I tried drawing a parallel to Hollywood actresses.

I’m not going to give you the Cliff’s Notes version of each of my posts, because we all know you’re reading skills are so refined, and I’m certain you’ve read every one of them, so there is no need.

But I would like you to tell me where I “constantly bickered,” “challenged everything,” and relied on “distorted facts.” Come on, you said it, not me: give me some examples instead of purposely mischaracterizing someone else’s posts.

It is not that I simply disagree with you. Damn, anyone who can read, please raise your hand!

I’ve disagreed with plenty here at this site, including the members of The Starting Five. We’ve argued, sometimes it got ugly. But that’s not the point.

Read what I’ve said twice now, and please try to understand my point before typing a reply. I refuse to state it a third time, simply for those who, rather than deal with what has been said, would put words into the mouths of others. Actually, if you understand my point clearly, then you will see that a reply is not even necessary.

Good luck and happy Reading!

You, too, are lacking in reading comprehension. Do not trivialize my words to fit whatever agenda you have set for yourself. But rather read my words fully, and then reply, if necessary.

Nowhere did I state that TSF should surround themselves with people who agree with them. I said quite the opposite, in fact. Read it again.

Nowhere did I state that people who wish to discuss and debate in a respectful manner should not be allowed to do so. Read it again.

The point is, one of many points actually, that this debate has devolved into a spitting contest, and the guy doing ALL the spitting refuses to acknowledge the light of reason, in fact, he doesn’t respect the mission of this site. That, to me, is not acceptable. But this aint my website, so all I can do is ask the owners to do something about it, because this “discussion,” as well as previous discussions that have been cheapened by “Jason,” is destroying the intellectual fabric that not only holds this site together, but that renders it desirable to peole like me who actually give a damn about its content.

Do not ever call anything I say “childish.” Doing so puts you in the same class as “Jason,” and demonstrates that you are in fact the childish one. Indeed “Jason’s” arguments do not stand up to scrutiny, and this entire discussion has already devolved into childish tactics, as I said earlier.

Read it again.

Nowhere

Wow, that is pretty sad — asking to ban someone you disagree with. How about actually forming arguments of your own that address mine?

But there’s no need to ban me. If Dwil or Mizzo want to ask me to leave, then I’m gone.

How do you think the Bush administration got themselves in so much trouble?

By surrounding themselves with no one but those who agree with them.

If people post in a respectful manner, let them state their views.

Those who are not confident that their arguments will stand up to scrutiny would resort to childish tactics such as silencing those who present disparate views.

Dictators like Chavez and Putin resort to tactics like that, but liberal-minded Americans should not.

You hit the nail on the head. When people run out of logic, they just resort to cries of “racist!”. This completely undermines their arguments, at least in the eyes of their intended audience.

Paul,

You immediately lose credibility when you make ridiculous implications like insinuating that America is in any way similar to Nazi Germany. Yes, racism exists, and white people will never fully understand the black experience in that regard.

That being said, the civil rights situation in this country has improved drastically in the past half-century, and crying wolf every 5 minutes is only going to desensitize people to the racism that does still exist in this country.

I hope for your sake that you learn that lesson at some point, so that people will take your arguments more seriously.

I understand your mission to spark dialogue between disperate points of view here at TSF, you know I’m good with that. But, I’ve said this before, when folk come here with the sole purpose of arguing for the sake of argument, and/or of constantly creating discord, constantly bickering, challenging everything, all the while relying upon the same set of distorted “facts,” refusing to consider alternatives even after these alternatives have been faithfully stated over and over again, and then finally, fatefully resorting to name-calling, well, something’s got to give.

This type of behavior, even from a lone persistent gadfly like “Jason,” becomes tiresome, banal, and counterproductive. It mitigates enjoyment of the site by folk, like me, or KevDog, or Pac Vike, or McBias, or S2N, or SML, and so many others, who truly appreciate what you all have set out to do, even when we disagree with your views.

Now I’m all for discussion and the argumentative style, and I have certainly had my share of battles here. But even I had to learn to monitor and control my replies to people, and especially to deal only with those for whom it can be determined that they actually have honest intentions while debating. “Jason” is no such person, and time is now being wasted in responding to someone who sees no value at all in what TSF is doing.

So, I’m pleading with you Dave, and you Mike T, do us all a favor and “ban” this dude, ignore him, or in any case, shut him down.

He’s not worth the web hits any more.

Mizzo, you may find this relevant to the Hardaway question–I do.
“Our Prejudices, Ourselves” Harvey Fierstein
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/13/opinion/13fierstein.html?ex=1334116800&en=71a4ec8bba7145ef&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

I agree with your assessment that black athletes are frequently under attack; it’s worth noting that gay people are also frequently under attack, often without repercussion for the attackers. And that’s why for me, how a question is posed is irrelevant in light of the blatant bigotry expressed in the answer. I’m not trying to continue the discussion–I think we’ve exhausted it and understand where each other stands (with respect, I hope). I just thought I’d pass the link along to you.

(sorry if the link doesn’t work: if you google it, you can access the text).

Did I say that this was right?

Oprah was denied access to a store a called a nigger onn camera.

Did I say this was right either?

I am a professional with a career and do not deserve to be targeted because of my color.

And I agree with you. So what is your point? That certain individuals have racist tendencies? Well no shit. As for the rest of your diatribe, it is tough to argue with someone who resorts to straw-man arguments, emotional instead of logic, and ad hominem attacks.

The fact that you compared the USA in 2007 to Hitler Germany speaks for itself. I will now play your game and say: you are a kook who needs to keep taking his medication.

It most certainly concerns me that black people in America get the short end of the stick. I just do not believe there is a conspiracy of racist middle aged whites keeping people down. I do think there is institutional racism. I have a big problem with public high schools getting their funding from local property taxes, this is a huge problem. How can schools in East Oakland get better if they get revenue from the tax values of homes worth nothing? That is racism.

Look, I live in a very liberal area (Oakland) with a black mayor and programs to get contracts and jobs to minorities and minority run businesses. So I see progress happening. Maybe my experience is unlike that of others in this thread, but I’m not sure I know any white people who hate blacks. I know people so riddled with white guilt they don’t know what to do with themselves, though.

Things need to change, but I think it starts with access to better education. And comparing America today to the rise of Hitler or what led to it is farfetched. What rights are being taken from blacks? Where are the ovens? What’s wrong is wrong, but it is unfair in my judgement to compare an African-Americans situation today to one in the sixties or under slavery where rape and murder could occur for no reason and at any time. They are a product of this horrible mistreatment, just as the Irish are a product of the oppression of their people by the English. They are not under that yolk of tyranny now though.

I think things need to get better, but you seem to paint a picture of oppresive racism in America when I think it’s better than that. I think it starts with access to education and alot can be accomplished. Not all of it but a big chunk certainly.

Paul, you are not much better.

Facts are facts so lets talk about the facts in my previous comment and why don’t you answer those questions.

What facts precisely did you state? I saw the typical “whites are to blame for all black people’s problems,” but not a single fact.

I think the general debate here is a good thing. White people are coming from a much different place than black people and we (yes I’m white) often forget that. I know I am guilty from time to time of thinking “what’s the big deal” when certain issues seperate the black and white community. It’s good to know how others feel on a particular issue, it’s educational to all.