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	<title>Comments on: Some Additional Thoughts on the Referee Bias Study (Updated Below)</title>
	<atom:link href="http://thestartingfive.wordpress.com/2007/05/02/some-additional-thoughts-on-the-referee-bias-study/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://thestartingfive.wordpress.com/2007/05/02/some-additional-thoughts-on-the-referee-bias-study/</link>
	<description>Bangin' and Scorin' Every Trip Down the Floor</description>
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		<title>By: jcn</title>
		<link>http://thestartingfive.wordpress.com/2007/05/02/some-additional-thoughts-on-the-referee-bias-study/#comment-2960</link>
		<dc:creator>jcn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 May 2007 06:23:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thestartingfive.wordpress.com/2007/05/02/some-additional-thoughts-on-the-referee-bias-study/#comment-2960</guid>
		<description>Since the authors looked only at box scores -- and thus have no record of which referee called fouls on which players -- it&#039;s hard to take this study seriously one way or another...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since the authors looked only at box scores &#8212; and thus have no record of which referee called fouls on which players &#8212; it&#8217;s hard to take this study seriously one way or another&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: mcbias</title>
		<link>http://thestartingfive.wordpress.com/2007/05/02/some-additional-thoughts-on-the-referee-bias-study/#comment-2862</link>
		<dc:creator>mcbias</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 May 2007 21:44:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thestartingfive.wordpress.com/2007/05/02/some-additional-thoughts-on-the-referee-bias-study/#comment-2862</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t want to disclose too much about myself, but suffice it to say I have taken grad-level stats and econ, and I think these researchers did try really hard to control all the factors they could. But yet, I still think they went too far in saying that this was anything like definitive evidence. 

First, it bothers me that the percentage of extra fouls was so small. It&#039;s possible that one or two white referees or bad crews could be responsible for the entire difference. The number of total NBA referees is not that large. 

Second, as I brought up the other day before the articles you linked to were published, whites tend to be more stationary players than blacks. There are exceptions (Ginobili for whites, Allen/Redd for blacks) but it is a general rule.

What I really would like to see is an analysis on technical fouls. I think that would get rid of problem 2 and maybe even problem 1. But again, there&#039;s another danger; are blacks, as a whole, a more expressive culture than whites? If so, then race may be a confounding factor to what we really should be looking at, which is expressiveness of culture. And too, what about the difference between Northern Europeans, which I personally perceive as more self-controlled and less expressive, and Southern Europeans, who are more emotional? Sorry to be confusing here. But any statistician knows there&#039;s a big difference between correlation and cause. Else, an increase in ice cream consumption really does cause an increase in drowning deaths. (It&#039;s a common anecdote in stats, ask if you&#039;ve never heard of it; both occur because it&#039;s summer, and have nothing to do with each other.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t want to disclose too much about myself, but suffice it to say I have taken grad-level stats and econ, and I think these researchers did try really hard to control all the factors they could. But yet, I still think they went too far in saying that this was anything like definitive evidence. </p>
<p>First, it bothers me that the percentage of extra fouls was so small. It&#8217;s possible that one or two white referees or bad crews could be responsible for the entire difference. The number of total NBA referees is not that large. </p>
<p>Second, as I brought up the other day before the articles you linked to were published, whites tend to be more stationary players than blacks. There are exceptions (Ginobili for whites, Allen/Redd for blacks) but it is a general rule.</p>
<p>What I really would like to see is an analysis on technical fouls. I think that would get rid of problem 2 and maybe even problem 1. But again, there&#8217;s another danger; are blacks, as a whole, a more expressive culture than whites? If so, then race may be a confounding factor to what we really should be looking at, which is expressiveness of culture. And too, what about the difference between Northern Europeans, which I personally perceive as more self-controlled and less expressive, and Southern Europeans, who are more emotional? Sorry to be confusing here. But any statistician knows there&#8217;s a big difference between correlation and cause. Else, an increase in ice cream consumption really does cause an increase in drowning deaths. (It&#8217;s a common anecdote in stats, ask if you&#8217;ve never heard of it; both occur because it&#8217;s summer, and have nothing to do with each other.)</p>
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		<title>By: ChrisH</title>
		<link>http://thestartingfive.wordpress.com/2007/05/02/some-additional-thoughts-on-the-referee-bias-study/#comment-2845</link>
		<dc:creator>ChrisH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 May 2007 15:11:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thestartingfive.wordpress.com/2007/05/02/some-additional-thoughts-on-the-referee-bias-study/#comment-2845</guid>
		<description>On the flip side it&#039;s pretty amazing that the biases between refs and players would  result in at most 1 extra foul called per player every 11 or 12 games.  I thought it would be higher.

An interesting solution would be to raise the percentage of black referees so that their smaller bias cancels evens out the bias of the white refs.

Another interesting study would be the bias of wnba/college refs against unattractive players.   I gotta believe the hotties get a large benefit in that sport if the ref crew is all male.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the flip side it&#8217;s pretty amazing that the biases between refs and players would  result in at most 1 extra foul called per player every 11 or 12 games.  I thought it would be higher.</p>
<p>An interesting solution would be to raise the percentage of black referees so that their smaller bias cancels evens out the bias of the white refs.</p>
<p>Another interesting study would be the bias of wnba/college refs against unattractive players.   I gotta believe the hotties get a large benefit in that sport if the ref crew is all male.</p>
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		<title>By: Craig W.</title>
		<link>http://thestartingfive.wordpress.com/2007/05/02/some-additional-thoughts-on-the-referee-bias-study/#comment-2844</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig W.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 May 2007 14:55:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thestartingfive.wordpress.com/2007/05/02/some-additional-thoughts-on-the-referee-bias-study/#comment-2844</guid>
		<description>It is unrealistic to think that racism doesn&#039;t exist - in everyone to some degree. 

That being said, the operative question is How much does it affect my life? That is what I get out of this article. Like rape, racism is a loaded word that is used to get attention (by people, newspapers, etc). If we cannot eliminate racism by fiat then most of our concern should be Does it affect the game? 

Again, the study found that racism exists, but DOESN&#039;T affect basketball fouls in a very measurable sense. Actually, I am comforted by this finding, not outraged.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is unrealistic to think that racism doesn&#8217;t exist &#8211; in everyone to some degree. </p>
<p>That being said, the operative question is How much does it affect my life? That is what I get out of this article. Like rape, racism is a loaded word that is used to get attention (by people, newspapers, etc). If we cannot eliminate racism by fiat then most of our concern should be Does it affect the game? </p>
<p>Again, the study found that racism exists, but DOESN&#8217;T affect basketball fouls in a very measurable sense. Actually, I am comforted by this finding, not outraged.</p>
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		<title>By: dwil</title>
		<link>http://thestartingfive.wordpress.com/2007/05/02/some-additional-thoughts-on-the-referee-bias-study/#comment-2835</link>
		<dc:creator>dwil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 May 2007 03:40:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thestartingfive.wordpress.com/2007/05/02/some-additional-thoughts-on-the-referee-bias-study/#comment-2835</guid>
		<description>As I wrote over at Wages of Wins:

It is incorrect to think that police stoppages due to DWB do not have a potential (negative) economic significance on the DWB victim.

Should the event occur on the way to work it will have a detrimental effect on wages earned and perhaps employment. Should the event occur on the way home when one is “taking work home with them” (as in the case of a black judge on his way home to San Jose, Ca.) there can be a palpable negative effect on one’s ability to finish the work load brought home.

Additionally, there is the psychological factor of gathering one’s self in the aftermath of this sort of incident that has never been addressed relative to its negative economic impact; the loss of work time, quality of work after such an incident, etc.

——————–

Briefly on the study and its meaning:

The study reports that black and white referees treat opposite race players with a bias; white referees’ bias is more pronounced than black refs.

The conclusion is that through the set of variables that represents NBA play relative to fouls called, there is statistical evidence of subconscious (at least) bias in the NBA workplace that can be transposed to the workplace, in general.

(I am constantly surprised that anyone watching an NBA - or any sporting event - game with their own inherent set of biases toward the games and players they view can think bias does not exist between referees and players based on color.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I wrote over at Wages of Wins:</p>
<p>It is incorrect to think that police stoppages due to DWB do not have a potential (negative) economic significance on the DWB victim.</p>
<p>Should the event occur on the way to work it will have a detrimental effect on wages earned and perhaps employment. Should the event occur on the way home when one is “taking work home with them” (as in the case of a black judge on his way home to San Jose, Ca.) there can be a palpable negative effect on one’s ability to finish the work load brought home.</p>
<p>Additionally, there is the psychological factor of gathering one’s self in the aftermath of this sort of incident that has never been addressed relative to its negative economic impact; the loss of work time, quality of work after such an incident, etc.</p>
<p>——————–</p>
<p>Briefly on the study and its meaning:</p>
<p>The study reports that black and white referees treat opposite race players with a bias; white referees’ bias is more pronounced than black refs.</p>
<p>The conclusion is that through the set of variables that represents NBA play relative to fouls called, there is statistical evidence of subconscious (at least) bias in the NBA workplace that can be transposed to the workplace, in general.</p>
<p>(I am constantly surprised that anyone watching an NBA &#8211; or any sporting event &#8211; game with their own inherent set of biases toward the games and players they view can think bias does not exist between referees and players based on color.)</p>
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		<title>By: ken</title>
		<link>http://thestartingfive.wordpress.com/2007/05/02/some-additional-thoughts-on-the-referee-bias-study/#comment-2831</link>
		<dc:creator>ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 May 2007 01:16:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thestartingfive.wordpress.com/2007/05/02/some-additional-thoughts-on-the-referee-bias-study/#comment-2831</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve got a quibble with a point that Berri makes:

&quot;If they were racists, you would think they would not choose this line of employment.&quot;

Okay, I don&#039;t think the refs are conscious racists.  [insert discussion about how racism is a subtle phenomenon based on unacknowledged privilege and perceptions of one&#039;s group&#039;s position].  But...

69% of Americans are white, refs don&#039;t start their career at the NBA level.  They&#039;ve got to work their way up.  Most likely, this starts in the high schools across America.  Most likely, the players they referee are white.  It is only once they move up the ladder that the percentages get more and more black.  So my question is, how many high school basketball referees think they will eventually become NBA referees?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve got a quibble with a point that Berri makes:</p>
<p>&#8220;If they were racists, you would think they would not choose this line of employment.&#8221;</p>
<p>Okay, I don&#8217;t think the refs are conscious racists.  [insert discussion about how racism is a subtle phenomenon based on unacknowledged privilege and perceptions of one's group's position].  But&#8230;</p>
<p>69% of Americans are white, refs don&#8217;t start their career at the NBA level.  They&#8217;ve got to work their way up.  Most likely, this starts in the high schools across America.  Most likely, the players they referee are white.  It is only once they move up the ladder that the percentages get more and more black.  So my question is, how many high school basketball referees think they will eventually become NBA referees?</p>
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		<title>By: More on the Price-Wolfers Study &#171; The Wages of Wins Journal</title>
		<link>http://thestartingfive.wordpress.com/2007/05/02/some-additional-thoughts-on-the-referee-bias-study/#comment-2830</link>
		<dc:creator>More on the Price-Wolfers Study &#171; The Wages of Wins Journal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 May 2007 01:06:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thestartingfive.wordpress.com/2007/05/02/some-additional-thoughts-on-the-referee-bias-study/#comment-2830</guid>
		<description>[...] As I told Weiler, this reaction misses the point.  In an e-mail to Weiler, I noted the following (which Weiler posted at The Starting Five): [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] As I told Weiler, this reaction misses the point.  In an e-mail to Weiler, I noted the following (which Weiler posted at The Starting Five): [...]</p>
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		<title>By: ken</title>
		<link>http://thestartingfive.wordpress.com/2007/05/02/some-additional-thoughts-on-the-referee-bias-study/#comment-2829</link>
		<dc:creator>ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 May 2007 01:02:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thestartingfive.wordpress.com/2007/05/02/some-additional-thoughts-on-the-referee-bias-study/#comment-2829</guid>
		<description>My favorite line from the NYTimes article:  

&quot;The paper by Mr. Wolfers and Mr. Price has yet to undergo formal peer review before publication in an economic journal.&quot;  

Hey, NYTimes, I&#039;ve got 3 chapters from a dissertation that meet the same criteria.  How about some press?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My favorite line from the NYTimes article:  </p>
<p>&#8220;The paper by Mr. Wolfers and Mr. Price has yet to undergo formal peer review before publication in an economic journal.&#8221;  </p>
<p>Hey, NYTimes, I&#8217;ve got 3 chapters from a dissertation that meet the same criteria.  How about some press?</p>
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		<title>By: dwil</title>
		<link>http://thestartingfive.wordpress.com/2007/05/02/some-additional-thoughts-on-the-referee-bias-study/#comment-2819</link>
		<dc:creator>dwil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 May 2007 22:29:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thestartingfive.wordpress.com/2007/05/02/some-additional-thoughts-on-the-referee-bias-study/#comment-2819</guid>
		<description>Tony-
jweiler is white.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tony-<br />
jweiler is white.</p>
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		<title>By: Tony</title>
		<link>http://thestartingfive.wordpress.com/2007/05/02/some-additional-thoughts-on-the-referee-bias-study/#comment-2817</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 May 2007 21:27:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thestartingfive.wordpress.com/2007/05/02/some-additional-thoughts-on-the-referee-bias-study/#comment-2817</guid>
		<description>Do black people do anything besides bitch &amp; moan? Seriously. No wonder they all vote Democrat - they fit in perfectly with those whiny liberals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do black people do anything besides bitch &amp; moan? Seriously. No wonder they all vote Democrat &#8211; they fit in perfectly with those whiny liberals.</p>
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		<title>By: dwil</title>
		<link>http://thestartingfive.wordpress.com/2007/05/02/some-additional-thoughts-on-the-referee-bias-study/#comment-2816</link>
		<dc:creator>dwil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 May 2007 21:17:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thestartingfive.wordpress.com/2007/05/02/some-additional-thoughts-on-the-referee-bias-study/#comment-2816</guid>
		<description>J-
Thanks for fleshing this out and exposing the media&#039;s duplicity - admittedly, some through ignorance - in tossing a veil over the issue of race and racism relative to the NBA - and by natural extension, society at large.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>J-<br />
Thanks for fleshing this out and exposing the media&#8217;s duplicity &#8211; admittedly, some through ignorance &#8211; in tossing a veil over the issue of race and racism relative to the NBA &#8211; and by natural extension, society at large.</p>
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